Preamble

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL [Lords] (By Order)

Second Reading deferred till Thursday next.

Oral Answers to Questions — ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

Northern Region (Population)

Mr. Bob Brown: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, by how many he estimates the population of the Northern Region will have increased by 1981.

The First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Mr. Michael Stewart): Last November's estimate gave a net increase of 345,000 over the period from 1964 to 1981; the estimates are being revised.

Mr. Brown: Are the Government planning ahead greatly to increase the job opportunity which this increased population would call for? Would my right hon. Friend not agree that it will call for a much greater degree of public enterprise than we have in the region at present?

Mr. Stewart: Yes, the Government are making endeavours to increase the opportunity of work in the Northern Region, and I shall shortly he sending the Economic Planning Council for that region a full statement of the Government's views on the various proposals it has made.

Mr. Bob Brown: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs, when he estimates that the Government's measures will stop the drift of population from the Northern Region to the South-East.

Mr. M. Stewart: No such estimate is practicable, but the Government believe that the regional employment premium will produce in the next few years a more even spread of employment opportunities which should encourage a better regional migration balance.

Mr. Brown: While sharing the confidence of my right hon. Friend in the reguional employment premium, may I ask him whether he will not agree that if the present ruinous drift from the North-East to the South-East continues, we shall have far more than a reasonable share of aged and ageing people?

Mr. Stewart: My hon. Friend speaks of the drift to the South-East, but the South-East is no longer gaining by migration from the rest of England and Wales. Migration from the North is mostly to neighbouring areas and not to the South-East. It is the Government's intention that nobody shall require to leave this region through lack of job opportunity. There are, of course, other reasons why people may wish to move, which one would not wish to control.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Could the right hon. Gentleman say to what extent migration from the North-East, like migration from Scotland, under the present Government has been abroad and away from this country altogether?

Mr. Stewart: I think the hon. Gentleman would need to put that Question down.

Mr. Urwin: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that there are serious implications for the Northern Region because of the drift from that region, whether it is to the South-East, to the Midlands or elsewhere? Will the Government please try to give greater attention to the requirements of the Northern Region in the relief from unemployment?

Mr. Stewart: Yes, we are taking measures to that end and we shall continue to do so.

Social Services and Housing (Expenditure)

Mr. Marten: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs how much of the increased social expenditure since October, 1964, has been financed out of the expansion of British industry.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Economic Affairs (Mr. Harold Lever): Expenditure on social services and housing by the public sector increased between 1964–65 and 1966–67 by £1,306 million at current prices, of which £718 million was expenditure on goods and services. The increase in the gross domestic product at factor cost at current prices during the same period was in the neighbourhood of £3,000 million.

Mr. Marten: Can the hon. Gentleman say what is the estimated increase for the next year and whether this will also come out of the growth rate forecast by the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

Mr. Lever: No, Sir, I cannot give a precise forecast of this kind, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that, as the Chancellor said in his Budget statement, he is keeping his eye on public expenditure programmes so that they are kept reasonably in line with our growth prospects.

Lowest-Paid Workers

Mr. Winnick: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what progress has been made in increasing the wages of those employees earning below £15 a week basic pay.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Frederick Lee): The White Papers, Cmnd. 3150 and Cmnd. 3235, make it clear that the Government regard the improvement of the position of lowest-paid workers as a primary social objective to which priority should be given within the overall objectives of incomes policy. Wage increases affecting a very substantial number of workers have been approved under the criteria for increases to lowest-paid workers set out in these White Papers.

Mr. Winnick: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the recent Ministry of Social Security Report on poverty shows the shocking plight of those people on very low wage rates? Will he also not agree that a positive incomes policy could help those people who are earning below £15 a week? There has not been a great deal of progress in that matter so far.

Mr. Lee: One of the objects of an incomes policy is to assist in this kind

of thing. The industries which have had increases include very large numbers of lower-paid workers. About 2½ million workers are involved, and a great number of them are low paid.

Sir R. Cary: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that our essential staff here is gravely under strength and that the urgent need for recruitment ought to be dealt with at once? Yet the inducement in pay is almost less than the figure indicated in this Question.

Mr. Lee: I am not sure that I follow the hon. Gentleman. If he will put a Question down I will try to answer it.

Mr. Huckfield: Could my right hon. Friend say which classes of those workers earning below £15 a week he proposes to submit to the Prices and Incomes Board?

Mr. Lee: One cannot make any kind of generalisation. It depends upon the kind of claim which is made. As I have said, the criterion takes special care of lower-paid workers, and we try to ensure that increases in the rates for the lower-paid under this criterion are not passed on as a differential for the higher-paid workers.

Dr. Summerskill: Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the average wage of women employees in this country is well below £15 a week? Would he urge his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour to legislate for equal pay for women?

Mr. Lee: Perhaps my hon. Friend will put down that Question to her right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour.

Mr. Winnick: Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall try to raise the matter on the Adjournment as soon as possible.

Stansted Airport

Mr. Biggs-Davison: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he will consult the South-East Regional Economic Council on the economic implications for Essex of the proposed expansion of Stansted Airport.

Mr. M. Stewart: Yes, Sir.

Mr. Biggs-Davison: Is not the Government's decision, described by Lord Plowden as a crime against regional planning, directly contrary to the policy and purposes of the right hon. Gentleman's Department?

Mr. Stewart: A number of opinions, some agreeing with that and some contrary to it, have been expressed, but the matter was very fully discussed the other day and the House took its decision.

Mr. Kirk: As he has said that he will consult it, when does the right hon. Gentleman hope to have an answer from the Regional Economic Council, and will he publish the answer?

Mr. Stewart: It is not a matter of just an answer to a question. I should want to consult with the Council about how to accommodate the increased population which will arise and to deal with the economic development resulting from the expansion of the airport. I expect that it will be possible, if it is desired, to keep the House informed of exchanges of opinion between the Council and myself.

National Plan

Mr. G. Campbell: asked the First Secretary and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs when he now expects to publish a revised or new National Plan.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs when he now expects to publish a revised version of the National Plan.

Mr. M. Stewart: I have nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield, West (Mr. Lomas) on 23rd February.—[Vol. 741, c. 326.]

Mr. Campbell: After the official jettisoning of the National Plan on 10th November last, is it not necessary for the Government to clarify the position now, without further delay?

Mr. Stewart: I have explained to the House that the projections and assumptions for the National Plan are being revised. I am doing this in consultation with the National Economic Development Council and with industry, but I should like to carry this work a bit further before giving precise dates.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Has the right hon. Gentleman noted the comment of Sir Ronald Edwards that the latest increases in. electricity prices were largely caused by over-investment resulting from the electricity boards' desire to conform to the targets of the old National Plan? Will he bear in mind the dangers of this sort of economic Couéism when he comes to the next plan?

Mr. Stewart: It is always possible when framing a National Plan to make the error of over-optimism, and it would be possible also—this seems to be the error into which hon. Members are falling—to take too gloomy and restrictionist a view of what is possible. One must avoid both these errors.

Mr. Marten: When shall we have the revised National Plan? It has been an awful long time coming.

Mr. Stewart: I have already said that I did not wish at this stage to give a definite date. I am in consultation with the N.E.D.C. about it.

Prices and Incomes Act (Appeal Case Decisions)

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs whether he has now considered the decisions of the Court of Appeal in the cases of Allenv.Thorn Electrical Industries Limited and Griffithsv.Metropolitan Police District Receiver; and what action he proposes to take in the light of these decisions.

Mr. M. Stewart: I apologise, Mr. Speaker, for a rather lengthy Answer.
The decisions of the Court of Appeal in these cases related to the interpretation of Sections 28 and 29 of the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966. The effect of the court's ruling is that an Order made under Section 28 of the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966, cannot restrict the payment of an increase in pay contractually due before the coming into force of the Order and that an Order made under Section 29 cannot restrict the payment of an increase in pay contractually due before 20th July, 1966. As a result, the Orders which have been made relating to Thorn Electrical Industries Ltd., the Metropolitan Receiver, Birmingham Corporation and Harland and Wolff are ineffective in restricting


the particular increases in pay against which they were originally directed, and I have decided that it would be right in all the circumstances to revoke them.
I must emphasise that the court's decisions relate solely to the interpretation of only a few of the Orders made under Part IV of the Prices and Incomes Act. They have no wider application, and the Government look to all concerned to continue to maintain the prices and incomes policy on a voluntary basis.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Does that Answer mean that, over the past year, on several occasions, the right hon. Gentleman has sought to interfere with bargains made before 20th July and has made Orders backed by criminal penalties to invalidate them without a scrap of legal authority? Does he recall that, during the passage of the Bill, we warned him that the methods adopted for its passage would produce a shambles? Has he not landed the Government and their economic policy in a humiliating mess?

Mr. Stewart: The last suggestion is quite untrue. The effect of the court's decision affects at most 1.000 workers out of the 36,000 who have been affected by Orders made under Part IV, itself a very small proportion of the total body of workers because the policy has been carried through in the main by voluntary means. Further, the decision was made on a narrow point of law on the particular Sections, and the Opposition did not raise that point during the debates on the Bill.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Question and answer must be reasonably brief.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Does not my right hon. Friend consider it stupid that the courts may defeat the express will of Parliament because the will of Parliament has not been correctly phrased by the Parliamentary draftsmen, the courts having to apply a rule of interpretation which forbids them to look at what is the express will of Parliament instead of the words of a Statute?

Mr. Speaker: Order. Questions must be brief.

Mr. Lubbock: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Gentleman to cast aspersions on the decision of a court of law?

Mr. Speaker: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman was casting aspersions on the court. He was trying to make a political point.

Mr. Stewart: It does happen from time to time that decisions are given by the court as to what a Statute means which are totally unforeseen and are surprising to laymen, but it would not be proper to criticise the judgment of the court. It has applied the law in the ordinary way.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Since the point has been raised by the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock), may I say that it was never my intention to criticise the Court of Appeal. I was criticising the rule of construction.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I have already ruled on that matter.

Mr. Iain Macleod: Will the First Secretary of State take it from me—I have the quotation here—that on 25th October I raised this very point about the interpretation of Clause 29 which has now been unheld by the Court of Appeal? Second, will he realise that in all the four cases he has mentioned the Opposition moved to annul the Orders but they were resisted by the Government? Third, as a shambles has now resulted, will the right hon. Gentleman at least give an undertaking that no further Orders will be made under Part IV?

Mr. Stewart: I cannot accept the word "shambles". Orders affecting a very limited number of workers have been declared to be in part, though not in whole, invalid on a narrow point of law. This does not affect the main basis on which the policy has been and still is being carried through. It is true that the right hon. Gentleman made the point on 25th October. Unfortunately for him, the House passed the Bill by 12th August.

Mr. Higgins: The right hon. Gentleman says that only a few Orders were affected. Can he tell us what percentage they are of the total? Why are they now considered so unimportant, when the House was assured that they were essential when they were debated on Prayers?

Mr. Stewart: It would have been wrong, in view of what was then believed to be the legal position, for the Government to


allow these increases to be made without making an Order. I could not give offhand the percentage of the number of Orders made. What is more to the point is the percentage of workers affected by this very limited decision, and I have given that to the House.

Mr. Molloy: Will my right hon. Friend take cognisance of the fact that many of the criticisms from this side of the House are very genuine, because we are concerned at the policy's effects on workers, whilst those from the other side are an exhibition of [Interruption.s]—

Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must be allowed to put his supplementary question.

Mr. Molloy: —an exhibition of a newfound love for British trade unionism which will vanish immediately should the tragedy occur of hon. Members opposite returning to this side of the House?

Mr. Stewart: Yes, Sir. I think that we have all been aware for some time that that was the position.

Gross Domestic Product (Growth Rate)

Mr. Ridley: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what has been the national rate of growth between October, 1964, and the most recent convenient date.

Mr. M. Stewart: Between the third quarter of 1964 and the fourth quarter of 1966 the growth in the gross domestic product was about 3½ per cent. or 1½ per cent. per annum.

Mr. Ridley: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that this sort of wishful thinking aloud does a great deal of harm when he forcasts rates of growth which are nothing like met in the event? Will he cease to quote rates of growth which the country cannot meet under the incompetent administration of the present Government?

Mr. Stewart: I do not think that I have done. so. In answering the hon. Gentleman's Question, I have told him what the rate of growth was. As I think is well known, the basic reason for not getting a higher rate of growth during this period was the constraints of the balance of payments difficulties of which hon. Members opposite are as well aware as anybody else.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us offhand of any other major industrialised country which has had a lower rate of growth over this period?

Mr. Stewart: I shall not answer that question offhand. If the hon. Gentleman wants answers of that kind he should put a Question on the Order Paper.

Printing Industry (Report)

Mr. Ridley: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what action he has taken in order to implement the Report of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on the printing industry.

Mr. Frederick Lee: Officials of the Ministry of Labour and of my own Department are in close touch with the industry regarding the implementation of the recommendations of the N.B.P.I. Report. Some of these recommendations have been implemented and others are under discussion within the industry.

Mr. Ridley: Can the right hon. Gentleman say which of these recommendations have been implemented? Does he agree that as this is probably an industry more riddled with restrictive practices and bad habits than any, it is vital that these Reports should have some follow-up, for otherwise the Reports of the Prices and Incomes Board will be taken into disrepute?

Mr. Lee: I assure the hon. Gentleman that a follow-up is taking place. The answer to his specific question is that the recommendations implemented are those relating generally to the composition and functions of the industry's Joint Manpower Committee and the review of wage escalation clauses. Progress has also been made by the unions in examining the question of amalgamation.

Hourly Wage Rates

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what is his Department's latest estimate of the increase in hourly wage rates between 1st July, 1966, and 31st December, 1967; and what was the increase in hourly wage rates over the corresponding period of the previous economic cycle, 1st July, 1961, to 31st December, 1962.

Mr. Frederick Lee: The figure of about 6 per cent. which my right hon. Friend gave to the House on 22nd March is the best estimate we have of the likely increase in the hourly wage rate index over the 18-month period July, 1966 to December, 1967. The increase in hourly wage rates over the period July, 1961, to December, 1962, was 6·4 per cent.

Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Does the Minister agree that this shows that the whole paraphernalia of the compulsory prices and incomes policy has served no useful purpose whatsoever?

Mr. Lee: It shows precisely the opposite, because more than half of these increases in wage rates come from agreements negotiated on or before 20th July last year, and therefore over the 18-month period there has been a very marked reduction as compared with the period before.

Northern Region (Employment)

Mr. Milne: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs what action he is taking, following representations from the Northern Regional Council of the Labour Party, about the present unemployment level in the Northern Region; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. M. Stewart: We are already taking further steps to strengthen the economy of the Northern Region. The new regional employment premium, in particular, should act as a powerful stimulus to both new and existing industry there.

Mr. Milne: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, while his Answer goes some way towards solving the problems we face at the moment, a greater sense of urgency is still needed before we can bring to the Northern Region the full employment that both Front Bench and back bench Members on this side of the House promised in the last two General Elections?

Mr. Stewart: Yes, Sir. There, remain many things which the Government want and intend to proceed with in order to help the situation in the Northern Region. But, as I pointed out in the debate on the regional employment premium, there has been a perceptible narrowing of the gap between rates of

unemployment in the country as a whole and the development areas.

Dame Irene Ward: But is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the insistence on the regional employment premium is absolute nonsense as regards the expansive programme we want in the North-East? Is he aware that in the mining, shipbuilding and marine engineering industries everything is in disrepair? When will he act?

Mr. Stewart: A number of measures has been taken both in the North and elsewhere to improve the industrial strength of the regions. There has been the action over investment grants, improvement of infrastructure and advance factories. Those whom the hon. Lady claims to represent—

Dame Irene Ward: I do represent.

Mr. Stewart: —will be surprised to hear her view that regional employment premiums are nonsense.

Mr. Shinwell: Is not my right hon. Friend aware that it is a matter of great concern that in Sunderland unemployment is now above 7 per cent. and that in some parts of my own area it is over 5 per cent.? The industries concerned —shipbuilding in Sunderland and mining in my area—will not be affected by the Government's new proposals.

Mr. Stewart: I know that there are these difficulties associated with the traditional industries in the North and in certain other areas. That is why, among other things, we must try to stimulate new industrial growth there.

Mr. Iain Macleod: How does the First Secretary explain that the latest unemployment figures, not for any particular area but for the country as a whole, are the worst June figures since the war?

Mr. Stewart: The right hon. Gentleman must put that as a Question to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. It goes wider than the regional considerations in the Question.

Mr. Leadbitter: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, whereas it is a matter of fact that the regional levels of unemployment have closed somewhat with the national levels, that does not minimise the serious hardship in the


Northern Region, particularly where men over 40 may be a large percentage of the unemployed? Will he give an undertaking that this aspect of the unemployment problem must be looked at?

Mr. Stewart: I certainly give the undertaking for which my hon. Friend asks, and I would not wish to say anything to minimise the seriousness of the employment problem in this region and in certain others. But I do not think that this should blind us to the fact that the Government have taken a whole range of measures which have been of real benefit to the regions where this problem is most difficult and heavy.

Mr. Ridley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the level of unemployment rose by 0·1 per cent. between May and June? What level of unemployment does he think will result in the North-East in the coming winter?

Mr. Stewart: A little while ago the hon. Gentleman urged me not to make prophecies. I think that I must return that advice to him.

Mr. Manuel: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are certain areas in the country, especially the fringe areas, where private enterprise industry simply will not go, and that unless he fulfils the pledge made at the last General Election to site publicly owned and operated industries in those areas we shall have them denuded of the people there today?

Mr. Stewart: The Government will be prepared to take whatever measures are necessary to deal with this problem.

British Goods (Competitiveness)

Sir J. Eden: asked the First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Economic Affairs by what means he is making certain that British goods are as competitive as anything that could be imported.

Mr. Harold Lever: The Government play their part in this through their industrial policies and the work of the Economic Development Committees, which help to increase efficiency and productivity, thus improving our competitiveness.

Sir J. Eden: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the Prime Minister that greater competitiveness will be achieved only when there are better incentives and prospects of greater reward; and what hope is there of securing either of these advantages so long as Government expenditure and taxation both continue to rise?

Mr. Lever: Apart from the fact that this advice would not come to the Prime Minister with the shock of novelty, I am afraid that I cannot offer to use such opportunities as I have of communication with the Prime Minister in so sterile a way.

Mr. McNamara: Will my hon. Friend publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT—and give some indication of it now—information about what import-saving industries have been established and have increased their competitiveness?

Mr. Lever: I should prefer that question to be put upon the Order Paper.

Mr. Frederic Harris: Surely even the present Government must realise that if the Government deliberately restrict home markets and make it difficult to sell in them, obviously imports must come in based on better markets and at much more competitive prices?

Mr. Lever: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate the difficulties that result from balance of payments problems. This is one of the consequences of the restrictionist phase in dealing with the balance of payments problems. As has already been pointed out this afternoon, the balance of payments problems have to be dealt with, and the responsibility for them is firmly understood, I am sure, by the hon. Gentleman to belong to our predecessors.

Mr. Pavitt: Can my hon. Friend say whether the Department is making any special efforts to cope with the possible large increase of imports if we go into the Common Market and to increase the competitiveness of British goods in order to prevent that?

Mr. Lever: I think that my hon. Friend will get a more satisfactory answer if he puts that question on the Order Paper.

Oral Answers to Questions — TELEPHONE SERVICE

Coastguard and Lifeboat Services

Dr. John Dunwoody: asked the Postmaster-General if he will take steps to ensure that, in all areas where coastguard and lifeboat services can be called by a 999 telephone call, these services will be listed together with fire, police and ambulance in telephone directories, on notices in call-boxes and on the dials of the telephone themselves.

The Assistant Postmaster-General (Mr. Joseph Slater): The coastguard service is already listed in telephone directories and call office notices as an emergency authority which can be obtained via 999. Space is not available on dial centre labels.

Dr. Dunwoody: While thanking my hon. Friend for that Answer, may I ask him if he will take steps to give more publicity to the fact that these two services are available on emergency telephone calls, because it seemed from the evidence on the "Darlwyn" disaster that many of the general public do not appreciate this fact?

Mr. Slater: Yes, Sir; wherever we can give greater publicity to the position concerning the points raised by my hon. Friend we will endeavour to do so. But the responsible emergency authority in this instance is the coastguard service, which invites the appropriate local lifeboat association to send out a lifeboat if it thinks it necessary. Nevertheless, we mention the lifeboat service in addition to the coastguard service in telephone directory prefaces, where we are less cramped for space than we are in call box notices.

Telephone Numbers

Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: asked the Postmaster-General whether he will inquire from his independent psychological advisers whether, if a vowel as well as a consonant were inserted against each number on the telephone dial, telephone users could evolve for themselves telephone numbers of three letters and four figures which would be more easily memorised than seven numbers.

The Postmaster-General (Mr. Edward Short): No, Sir. As there are ten figures and five vowels, each vowel would have to appear twice, and this would cause confusion.

Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise how terribly difficult it is for anyone to remember these seven-figure telephone numbers? Is it not possible to devise some simpler method? Can the right hon. Gentleman say with his hand on his heart, or whatever it is that he has there—perhaps a block of ice—how many old telephone numbers he can remember under the present system? [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker: Order. Questions must be brief.

Mr. Short: The hon. and gallant Gentleman must not judge everybody else by his own capacity. These numbers are certainly more difficult to remember, but we have no option in the matter; we have to develop as the rest of the world is developing, on all-figure numbers.

Oral Answers to Questions — WALES

Local Government (White Paper)

Mr. Finch: asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he will announce his expected report on local government reorganisation in Wales.

The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mrs. Eirene White): My right hon. Friend expects to publish his White Paper on Local Government in Wales on Tuesday, 11th July, 1967.

Mr. Finch: While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask her whether she is aware that local government reorganisation in Wales is urgently necessary, and what time will be allowed to local authorities to consider the recommendations that may be put forward?

Mrs. White: My right hon. Friend will be communicating with local authorities in Wales immediately following the publication of the White Paper, and will ask them to let him have within a reasonable period any comments that they may wish to make.

Mr. Gibson-Watt: Will the hon. Lady tell the House whether her right hon. Friend will come to the House and announce this important new policy?

Mrs. White: The Secretary of State for Wales will be laying the White Paper in the normal way, and it will be obtainable in the Vote Office next Tuesday afternoon for hon. Members to study.

Mr. Gibson-Watt: asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to set up an elected council for Wales.

Mrs. White: I would ask the hon. Member to await the forthcoming White Paper on Local Government in Wales.

Mr. Gibson-Watt: This is a scandal. Why do the hon. Lady and her right hon. Friend insult the Welsh people on this very important change in policy? Why is the Secretary of State afraid to come to the House and talk about this change? Why is it that the hon. Lady comes here now and says that the new Welsh policy on local government, which is more important than anything else at the present time, is being fobbed off in the form of a White Paper?

Mrs. White: I am sure that with his experience in the House the hon. Gentleman will recognise that it would be a scandal if I told him in advance what is in the White Paper.

Mr. Gibson-Watt: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. As it is perfectly clear that all Welsh Ministers are frightened at the present time of talking about this matter, I give notice—[Interruption.]—that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must observe the conventions of the House. If he wishes to give notice, he must do it in the normal Parliamentary way.

Mr. Gibson-Watt: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Might I, with great respect. say that nobody who understands and knows the problems of Welsh local government will underestimate the problem—

Mr. Speaker: Order. This is not a point of order. The hon. Gentleman must take note of what the Chair says.

Oral Answers to Questions — HOME DEPARTMENT

Legal Aid

Mr. Hamling: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the judge's comments in a recent criminal action in which wealthy defendants were given legal aid, he will now introduce legislation to give himself power to control the rules under which legal aid is administered.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Dick Taverne): The Criminal Justice Bill, now before Parliament, will enable the courts to require a person who is granted legal aid to pay a contribution towards the costs; and will empower my right hon. Friend to make regulations prescribing, among other matters, the manner in which a person's means are to be taken into account for the purpose of determining whether he should be granted legal aid and, if so, the amount of the contribution which he may be required to pay.

Mr. Hamling: Will my hon. and learned Friend agree that we are concerned not only with the rich people but also with a lot of poor people who cannot get legal aid?

Mr. Taverne: Legal aid should be more widely available as a result of the implementation of the Widgery Report.

EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY

Mr. Patrick Jenkin: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government will publish a booklet, intended for popular consumption, setting out the reasons why entry into the Common Market would be to Great Britain's advantage.

The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Brown): I am considering whether there is anything we can usefully add to the material listed by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State in his reply on the 14th of June to my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Mr. Murray).—[Vol. 748, c. 97–8.]

Mr. Jenkin: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this reconsideration will be welcomed? Is he also aware that


when I made this request to the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister was kind enough to send me a copy of his speech of 8th May? Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that that is no adequate substitute for a popular version of the arguments for joining the Common Market?

Mr. Brown: Perhaps I might try sending the hon. Gentleman a copy of my own speech to see whether it is any better.

Mr. Clark Hutchison: As it is highly improbable that we shall enter the E.E.C., will the right hon. Gentleman not waste public money on such a publication?

Mr. Brown: I do not know on what judgment the hon. Gentleman bases that suggestion. It will be interesting to see who turns out to be right.

WESTERN EUROPEAN UNION (FOREIGN SECRETARY'S STATEMENT)

Mr. Alfred Morris: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on his visit to The Hague to address the meeting of the Western European Union.

Mr. George Brown: In my statement at a meeting of the Council of Western European Union at The Hague on 4th July, I set out in detail Britain's case for joining the European Communities and the points which we hope to see covered in negotiations. My statement has been published as a White Paper, Cmnd. 3345. These meetings are by tradition confidential but I think my statement was particularly well received.

Mr. Morris: What official status has W.E.U. to deal with this matter? Did my right hon. Friend deliver the speech in the White Paper, including the last paragraph? Would he agree that we should avoid any grovelling attitude in face of the obstructive antics of the French Government to stop our application being considered?

Mr. Brown: One of its session days has customarily been deted by W.E.U. to discussing relations between the United Kingdom and the European Communities, and it was in that connection that I delivered my speech. There is no doubt

that I delivered the speech nor that I delivered paragraph 50 with it. I handed copies of it to the Chairman of the Council of Ministers and the President of the Commission, both of whom had requested that I should do so. My hon. Friend may take it that it is now on record.

Lord Balniel: In his reference to agriculture, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned only three agricultural commodities—pig meat, eggs and milk. Does this mean that, for other agricultural commodities, he accepts the Community system? If so, is that acceptance shared by the Minister of Agriculture?

Mr. Brown: On the whole, I should like to see that question on the Order Paper. I also mentioned hill farmers in my speech.

Mr. Mendelson: While details of my right hon. Friend's discussions may be private, may I ask whether he recalls that the Government entered into certain commitments to this House during the debate on our application to join the E.E.C., in particular with reference to defence? Will he give a categorical assurance that he is not proposing, or entering into, negotiations on a new sharing of nuclear weapons and the setting up of an additional nuclear command?

Mr. Brown: If my hon. Friend will do me the honour of reading what I said, he will see that that question does not arise.

Mr. Jennings: In fact, has not the right hon. Gentleman committed the Government to the full gamut of economic, political and defence union?

Mr. Brown: That is not a fact at all; nor do I think it arises. I have given the E.E.C. and the other Communities a clear basis on which we could now negotiate the early entry of this country into membership of the E.E.C.

VIETNAM

Mr. Hooley: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will now move to bring the question of the War in Vietnam before the Special General Assembly of the United Nations now sitting.

Mr. George Brown: No, Sir. As I told the House on 27th February, the North Vietnamese, supported by their allies, refuse to accept that the United Nations has any positive rôle to play in solving the Vietnamese conflict. Until this attitude changes I see no scope for fruitful discussion in the United Nations. —[Vol. 742, c. 78–79.]

Mr. Hooley: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the war in Vietnam is a much greater threat to the peace of the world even than the recent unfortunate events in the Middle East? Would not he also agree that, under the United Nations Charter, the U.N. has the right to discuss any threat to the peace from any quarter, irrespective of the attitude of an interested party?

Mr. Brown: Yes, Sir, but one has to consider where we should get in the absence of interested parties. I have no doubt that we could have a discussion in the United Nations, but whether it would lead us anywhere nearer a reasonable end to the conflict is another matter. Frankly, in the face of the North Vietnamese refusal—which they made clear to U Thant on 14th March—to accept that the United Nations has any rôle to play, I do not see any point at the moment in trying to put this matter into that forum.

Mr. Winnick: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a great deal of concern in this country that the Americans may begin a land invasion of North Vietnam? Will he use every possible pressure on the Americans to de-escalate the war they are waging in South-East Asia?

Mr. Brown: That is another question, but I repeat to my hon. Friend what I have said to him before—that I wish that he would direct his attention to de-escalating the war on the other side as well.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL FINANCE

Petrol and Oil (Taxation)

Mr. Dodds-Parker: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will seek to offset the forthcoming temporary increase in the price of petrol and oil by an equivalent reduction in tax.

The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. John Diamond): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 4th July to the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher).—[Vol. 749, c. 217.]

Mr. Dodds-Parker: The right hon. Gentleman should have another look. If prices are to go up, this is an easy way to keep them steady.

Mr. Diamond: This is not an easy way to keep them steady. It is very expensive. A total of £120 million would be involved.

EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY

Mr. G. Campbell: asked the Prime Minister what recent discussions he has had with heads of other Governments about Great Britain's application to enter the European Economic Community.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): So far as heads of E.E.C. Governments are concerned, with the President of the French Republic on 19th and 20th June and with the Prime Minister of Italy on 27th and 28th June. In addition I have of course discussed this problem with heads of Commonwealth and other non-E.E.C. Governments.

Mr. Campbell: As the Foreign Secretary said at The Hague on Tuesday that Britain wanted the negotiations to be short and that much of the preliminary work had already been done, can the Prime Minister yet give an indication of the timetable which he expects?

The Prime Minister: No, Sir. It is impossible for me to do so because, although we continually emphasise the need for urgency, and, indeed, get considerable support for that in the discussion, the timetable does not lie exclusively in our hands.

Mr. Shinwell: In the discussions with Heads of other Commonwealth Governments, did my right hon. Friend depart from the conditions that have been acceptable to the Labour Party for some years and which have been swept under the carpet completely by the Foreign Secretary in his speech to W.E.U.?

The Prime Minister: No, Sir. They have not been swept under the carpet.


The Commonwealth conditions were never spelt out, for example, in detail in any decision of the party conference in 1962. The basis on which I discussed the question with Heads of other Commonwealth Governments was the Motion accepted by the House in May, my own speech in that debate, together with the speeches of other Ministers, and any points which my Commonwealth colleagues wished to raise.

Mr. Heath: We welcome the more realistic approach by the Foreign Secretary in including a common European attitude towards defence as one of the Government's objectives in wanting to become a member of the E.E.C. After his last visit to President de Gaulle, the Prime Minister told the House that he had discussed with the President prospects of technological co-operation, research and development generally. Did he discuss the A.F.V.G. project with him?

The Prime Minister: I know that the right hon. Gentleman has talked in terms of a defence community and, I think, of an Anglo-French deterrent. What my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said in his speech, as he has again made clear today, related to a greater influence of Europe in world defence organisation and in the alliance organisations such as N.A.T.O. There was no suggestion of a European defence community in anything he said.
During my visit to President de Gaulle, we had a very brief discussion on the question of the A.F.V.G. He indicated something of the budgetary difficulties, but said that this should be a matter of discussion between my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and M. Messmer.

Mr. Eadie: asked the Prime Minister what part the Minister of Power will have in the negotiations for entry into the Common Market concerning the coal industry.

The Prime Minister: I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer I gave on 6th June to a Question by my right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell).—[Vol. 747, c. 189.]

Mr. Eadie: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the Minister of Power must know more about the details and

complexity of these industries? Would he not further agree that the recent Middle East crisis has underlined how vital our indigenous resources of coal are?

The Prime Minister: I agree on both points. That is why my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power will play an important part in any discussions particularly relating to membership of the E.C.S.C., not only in relation to coal but also to steel.

Mr. Varley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the coal industries of the Common Market countries are experiencing problems far greater than the difficulties of the British coal industry? Does he not agree that our entry into the Common Market is likely to exacerbate the existing problems of the British coal industry?

The Prime Minister: It is true that some of the Common Market coal industries are having a very extensive rundown at the present time and there has been a significant reduction in production, but not, I think, in imports from outside the Six. My hon. Friend will have seen that the estimate of the National Coal Board is that it would hope for an increase of up to 3 million tons in our exports to the Community if we succeed in joining.

Mr. Edward M. Taylor: Would the Prime Minister agree that one of the most serious burdens on Scottish economy is the differential prices for coal and gas? Would he confirm that neither the Government nor the Ministry of Power will accept unreservedly the E.C.S.C. rules which would make these differentials permanent and perhaps increase them?

The Prime Minister: It is a matter of how we go on in the negotiations. I do not think that it is the view of my right hon. Friend that anything involved in the present operations of the E.C.S.C., whose practices are in some cases rather difficult to define, would have any adverse reactions on the coal industry of this country generally or Scotland in particular.

Mr. Marten: asked the Prime Minister which Ministers are currently responsible for studying alternatives to joining the Common Market.

The Prime Minister: The Government as a whole considered the alternatives carefully before we decided to apply for membership of the European Communities. I do not think that any further studies are needed at this stage.

Mr. Marten: is the Prime Minister aware of the growing number of people and organisations seriously interested in studying the alternatives? Could the Government not perhaps publish a White Paper giving in outline some of the alternatives so that we can think about them in the case of a breakdown?

The Prime Minister: As I have said a number of times, not least in the debate, there are possible alternatives and we would not regard failure to get in as meaning the collapse of all hopes for the future. We think that getting in is the best answer for our economic policy. In the debate on 8th May and succeeding days, my right hon. Friends and I gave the House considerable details about what the alternatives were and what our judgment on them was.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the consequences of our determined application to join the Common Market is that our traditional trading partners are beginning to make plans for the diversification of their own trade? Is he not aware that in the event of our failure, which many of us hope will come about, the situation for creating an alternative will be very difficult indeed?

The Prime Minister: The diversification by some of our traditional trading partners has been going on for many years and has nothing to do with our recent application. The Prime Minister of Australia told me that he had seen the figures on the very morning on which we met. I cannot remember them exactly, but they showed that about 40 per cent. of their exports, if not more, go to the countries of South-East Asia, and their orientation in trading matters has been going in that direction for many years.

RHODESIA

Mr. Evelyn King: asked the Prime Minister what representations were made to him by the Prime Minister of Australia

on the matter of the Rhodsian problem in his recent conversations with him; and if he will make a statement.

The Prime Minister: None, Sir.

Mr. King: Would the Prime Minister accept that Australia, and almost every other country in the Commonwealth, has believed for a long time that the Rhodesian policy is now failing in its objective? Would he further accept that the mooted petrol rationing in Great Britain is making us look singularly ridiculous?

The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is always ready to cash in on problems. He knows that the oil problem is due to the Middle East situation. I am not aware of any suggestion from the Opposition in the debate on the Middle East which would have created a situation any different. We were then urged to be tougher on the side of Israel, and I imagine that that would have made the situation the same, if not worse. The Australian Government is in full support of British policy over Rhodesia. It was fully discussed both by my right hon. Friend on his visit and when Mr. Holt came here, and the Australians are cooperating fully in the sanctions policy.

Mr. Maudling: Did the Prime Minister discuss with Mr. Holt any possibility of the Australian Government playing a part in trying to solve the Rhodesian problem?

The Prime Minister: We have discussed this on a number of occasions. There is no specific rôle for the Australians except in acceptance—I think this is their view—of the decisions of the Commonwealth Conference and the decisions of the United Nations. Certainly Mr. Holt did not suggest any other rôle that they might play.

Mr. Thorpe: Can the Prime Minister say when the Secretary-General of the United Nations is likely to publish the reports which he has received from member nations on the effect of sanctions? When it is published, may we take it that the Commonwealth group will be meeting and concerting together at the United Nations?

The Prime Minister: Without notice I cannot answer that question. I do not know whether the Secretary-General has


a timetable in mind. That matter was not raised in the representations made to me by the Prime Minister of Australia.

Mr. Winnick: asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on Lord Alport's mission to Rhodesia.

Mr. Judd: asked the Prime Minister whether, following the visit by Lord Alport to Rhodesia he will give an undertaking that the Government are still committed to No Independence Before Majority Rule.

Mr. Biggs-Davison: asked the Prime Minister what response he has had from Mr. Smith to Lord Alport's mission; and whether he will make a statement.

The Prime Minister: I have at present nothing to add to the Answer I gave on 13th June to a Question by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) and to my replies to subsequent Questions about Lord Alport's visit.—[Vol. 748, c. 305.]

Mr. Winnick: Since Lord Alport apparently has been refused permission to visit the African Nationalist leaders, does this not show that the ruling clique of Salisbury is not willing to make any concessions? Would the Prime Minister not take too much notice of those people in Britain who sometimes act as if they were the fraternal delegates from the Rhodesian Front?

The Prime Minister: I do not know anything about that particular form of acting.
So far as Lord Alport's visit is concerned, it would be deplorable if his request to talk to leaders of the African Nationalists were refused by the ruling régime in that country. It was extremely deplorable when my right hon. Friend, who was there for some weeks last year seeking to talk to all sections of opinion, was firmly refused permission by Mr. Smith to visit Mr. Nkomo and Mr. Sithole. I thought it a deplorable decision. Hon. Members who sometimes regard us as a little slow to enter into talks should recognise that we entered into the talks on H.M.S. "Tiger" despite that very discourteous refusal to my right hon. Friend. I hope that Lord Alport will be treated differently.

Mr. Judd: Would not my right hon. Friend agree that this is precisely the time at which the British public and the Rhodesian Government should be told firmly by the British Government that there are certain fundamental points of political morality at stake in the situation on which we are not prepared to compromise and that N.I.B.M.A.R. is one?

The Prime Minister: The fundamental points of political morality which are at stake, and which have been at stake throughout the lifetime of this Government and the lifetime of our predecessor's Government, are the six principles.

Mr. Biggs-Davison: Has not the work of the Constitutional Commission in Salisbury and certain developments in Rhodesian Front politics made it urgently necessary to reopen talks if anything is to be saved of British trade and influence in Rhodesia? Will the Prime Minister seek urgently to talk again, to make peace, and to recognise the fact of Rhodesian independence on an honourable basis?

The Prime Minister: There is no fact of Rhodesian independence. It is totally illegal. In December I offered Mr. Smith very honourable terms—some would feel too generous—to enable Rhodesia to have independence. It could have had it by now on honourable and legal terms. This was refused. The hon. Gentleman voted to support the rejection of this offer.
As for Lord Alport's visit, we were told by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite that Mr. Smith was anxious for talks and had sent messages to that effect. I think it is deplorable that last week Mr. Smith should have denied that he had sent any messages. At least one right hon. Gentleman opposite knows the truth about that.

Mr. Bellenger: Would not the Prime Minister agree that if Lord Alport has any positive reactions he should report them immediately? Has my right hon. Friend received any information from Lord Alport or the Governor?

The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I have nothing to add to what I said on Tuesday. It is still the position that we have had nothing from Lord Alport in the sense which enables him to form a judgment


on the task that he went out to undertake. He is talking to a very wide section. and it is gratifying that people of all sections of opinion seem anxious to talk to him, though the question is how many of those he will be allowed to talk to.

Sir John Rodgers: While adhering to the six principles, would the Prime Minister be prepared to drop the humiliating terms he proposed for the return to so-called legality?

The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to what was said in debate. These were not humiliating terms. It was an offer to a rebel Government to reconstitute that Government as a legal Government within 48 hours and to enable it to go through the whole of the procedures that have been discussed with it when it was a legal Government for being granted independence in four months if, and only if, the people of Rhodesia as a whole wanted that to happen. It was a very honourable offer. The suggestion to get rid of some of the extremist members of his Government, if that is the humiliating term, was a suggestion made to me by Mr. Smith.

Mr. Whitaker: As the church leaders in Rhodesia estimate that 75 per cent. of the population owe allegiance to the Nationalist leaders, will the Prime Minister instruct Lord Alport that until he sees the leaders of 75 per cent. of the population he should no longer talk to the leaders of 13 per cent?

The Prime Minister: I have, and I am sure that the House has, enough confidence in Lord Alport to know that in any report which he makes he will take account of how representative have been the people to whom he has been speaking. I think the house will also judge that if he is refused access to the leaders of African Nationalist opinion that in itself will be a reflection on the régime and on the amount of trust which the House would wish to hand over to people of that kind.

Mr. Sandys: Will the Prime Minister give us an assurance that he will make a statement to the House as soon as Lord Alport reports and that we shall have an opportunity of discussing this matter before the House rises for the Summer Recess?

The Prime Minister: It would certainly be my intention to report to the House after Lord Alport has returned and after there has been a chance of discussing the situation with him, and on present timetables I would certainly hope that that would be before the House rises. A discussion of the situation in the light of such a statement is, of course, a matter for the Leader of the House.

Several Hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. We are past Question Time.

ALGERIA (BRMSH PILOTS)

Mr. Ronald Bell (by Private Notice): Mr. Ronald Bell (by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any further information about the two pilots of the British aircraft which was forcibly diverted to Algeria.

The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Brown): No, Sir.
As the House knows, Her Majesty's Consul-General in Algiers, who is also the Head of the British Interests Section of the Swiss Embassy there, has made repeated inquiries with the Algerian authorities since 1st July, when he first learnt of the incident.
The Swiss Government, who protect British interests in Algeria, were asked on 3rd July to make formal representations. This has been done and the Swiss Ambassador had a further meeting with the Algerian Ministry of Foreign Affairs today. I am awaiting a full report on this from the Swiss Government. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State yesterday reinforced our representations with the Kuwait Ambassador in London who looks after Algerian interests here.
I regard it as intolerable that there should so far have been no response to any of these representations. It is outrageous that our repeated requests for information about the two pilots should be disregarded in this way.
I am urgently considering what further steps are open to the Government if the representations being made today have no effect.

Mr. Bell: Is it not deplorable and a gross breach of international custom that


these men should not have been seen by anyone but their captors for six days? In considering their future steps if diplomatic representations fail, will Her Majesty's Government have in mind, among other things, the British commitment to buy large quantities of Algerian gas on terms which are now very disadvantageous to us?

Mr. Brown: As I said, this is quite intolerable and quite out of keeping with international custom and we must seriously consider what we shall do about it if it persists. I am not sure whether the hon. and learned Gentleman knows that the Algerians cut off the gas supply at the outbreak of the Middle East crisis.

Lord Balniel: As these men have been held incommunicado for six days, is not this rapidly becoming a major international outrage? If our representations are not heeded, and the Algerian Government continues to flout international convention, will the right hon. Gentleman look very seriously at our existing trade arrangements with Algeria?

Mr. Brown: It is a little early to talk in quite those terms, but, as I said, I am considering seriously what steps are now open to us if the present representations fail. However, I hope that we will all bear in mind that we are here concerned with the well-being of two pilots and that we might not help that by the fierceness of our statements today.

Mr. Molloy: I urge my right hon. Friend to take all possible swift action to ensure the safe return of these two pilots to their families. However, has the Foreign Office had any further discussions with the firm which allowed this plane to be chartered to see whether anything would emerge from such an examination to prevent a recurrence of this kind of incident?

Mr. Brown: I understand that while I was away Mr. Gregory told the Department that he knew nothing about what had happened. Of course, it is a fact that if private firms charter their aeroplanes to companies in other small countries like Liechtenstein, knowing nothing of what the purpose of the trip is, it is possible that, on occasion, they will get into difficulties out of which we shall have to try to dig them. However, I have

asked Mr. Gregory to come into the Department to talk to my people about it today and to tell us all he knows about the incident.

Sir W. Teeling: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that this issue also involves the problem of the Congo? Has he contacted the Congolese about this matter? Is he not aware that this aircraft was chartered by a firm which is linked with Leopoldville? Is it not probably true that it had been instructed to tell the pilots to take these people to Algeria?

Mr. Brown: The hon. Gentleman must be responsible for the facts which he has given to the House. I have said that I have asked Mr. Gregory to come to the Foreign Office and to tell us what he knows about the situation. I do not think that the Congo arises out of this Question. It is with Algeria that I am for the moment concerned.

Mr. Paget: Is it not a fact that British ships have been chartered by foreign companies from time immemorial, but that they do not thereby lose the protection of the British flag? In this case has not Mr. Tshombe—and is not this the most important point—been seized from the protection of the British flag and is not this the greatest affront which could be made to our country?

Mr. Brown: The Question is about two British pilots who are detained in Algeria and I am answering that Question. I will answer any other Question which my hon. and learned Friend might like to ask.

Mr. Hastings: Why has it taken all this time—a week—to ask Mr. Gregory to come to the right hon. Gentleman's Department?

Mr. Brown: Mr. Gregory has been giving information to the Department. I have been away for the last two days. The Department has the information which Mr. Gregory chose to give it. I have decided this morning, among other things, that I would like him to come personally and tell us all he knows about it.

Sir J. Hobson: Will the Foreign Secretary make it clear that the hi-jacking of British planes is a criminal offence under British law and that the British Government will do what they can to bring to book those responsible?

Mr. Brown: Yes, we will do what we can to bring those responsible to account for what they have done.
The House may like to know that I have just had passed to me a note, since I started answering this Question, which is from the Swiss Government in Berne and which tells me that the Swiss Ambassador had an interview with a senior Algerian official this morning and was told that the pilots were in good condition. They are not in gaol. They are in the situation of house arrest. No charges have been made against them, but they are being held for questioning. I tell the House that because it is entitled to have the latest information which we have.
In my view, that does not alter the situation that the Algerians are in default in not letting us have immediate access to the pilots.

Sir W. Teeling: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Foreign Secretary's replies, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Heath: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business of the House for next week?

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Richard Crossman): Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY, 10TH JULY—In the morning—
Prayers relating to the Training of leachers Regulations and the Carcinogenic Substances Regulations.
In the afternoon—
Motion on the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966 (Commencement of Part II) Order.
Remaining stages of the Prices and Incomes (No. 2) Bill.
TUESDAY, 11TH JULY—Supply [25th Allotted Day]:
Debate on The Care of the Elderly, which will arise on a Motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Remaining stages of the Greenwich Hospital Bill.
WEDNESDAY, 12TH JULY — In the morning—
Remaining stages of the Control of Liquid Fuel Bill.
Second Reading of the Welsh Language Bill [Lords].
Motions on the Civil Defence (Public Protection) Regulations for England and Wales and for Scotland, and on the Civil Defence (Casualty Services) Regulations.
In the afternoon—
Progress on the remaining stages of the Companies Bill [Lords].
THURSDAY, 13TH JuLY—Supply [26th Allotted Day]: Debate on The Effect of Government Policies on the British Aircraft Industry and the Royal Air Force, which will arise on an Opposition Motion.
Afterwards, we propose to provide a further opportunity for completion of the remaining stages of the Medical Termination of Pregnancy Bill.
FRIDAY, 14TH JULY—Remaining stages of the Criminal Law Bill [Lords].
Motions on the Material Development (No. 2) Regulations for England and Wales and for Scotland, and on the Betterment Levy (Minerals) (No. 2) Regulations for England and Wales and for Scotland, and the related Opposition Prayers.
MONDAY, 17TH JULY—The proposed business will be:
In the morning—
Second Reading of the Irish Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust Bill [Lords].
Remaining stages of the Welsh Language Bill [Lords].
In the afternoon—
Private Members' Motions until seven o'clock.
Afterwards, Motion on the Coal Industry (Borrowing Powers) Order.

Mr. Heath: Is not the Leader of the House being rather over-optimistic in thinking that next Monday afternoon the House can complete the Motion on the Prices and Incomes Act, 1966, and the remaining stages of the Incomes and Prices (No. 2) Bill? This is


especially so in view of the very large number of Amendments which have been placed on the Notice Paper by Members on his own side of the House.
Secondly, can the Leader of the House now tell us whether there is to be a Government White Paper on Defence?

Mr. Crossman: On the first question, we had better wait and see how we get on on Monday. I am very hopeful of doing what we set down.
On the second question, I can tell the Leader of the Opposition that there will be a Government White Paper on Defence. I hope that it will be published, I am not quite sure yet, early in the week after next, and that there will be at least a week before a debate is held on it so as to give an interval for study.

Several Hon. Members: Several Hon. Members rose—

Mr. Speaker: Order. We have an important debate ahead. I hope that hon. Members will ration their questions.

Mr. Mikardo: Does my right hon. Friend recall that there are before the House two very important documents on the Post Office—the White Paper and Report of the Select Committee? Does he think that there will be an opportunity in the reasonably near future for debating these, either separately or together?

Mr. Crossman: I do not underrate the importance of the documents for a moment, but I must tell my hon. Friend that between now and the Summer Recess we have very little Government time for general debates. The question of time for general debates is in the control of the Opposition.

Dame Irene Ward: With reference to the debate on my Motion on Monday, 17th July, "The Rights and Liberties of the Subject", are the Government to put the reply co my Motion in the hands of the Paymaster-General?

Mr. Crossman: If the hon. Lady would like that, I will put that suggestion to my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General.

Mr. Mendelson: Although there may be little time for general debates, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind the need for a discussion on foreign affairs before the House adjourns for the Summer Recess, in view of the many

urgent problems that the House ought to discuss?

Mr. Crossman: We are bearing that in mind. I feel that we ought to get a day for this before the Recess.

Mr. Boyd-Carpenter: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that last week he went out of his way to emphasise that the Government were neutral on the Medical Termination of Pregnancy Bill? Does the fact that further time is now being arranged by the Government for the Bill mean that the fig-leaf of neutrality has been dropped?

Mr. Crossman: I would not say that. I would say that the Government neutrality remains immaculate. What we are doing is simply to provide further time for the House to come to its own decision. The interest of myself as Leader is solely in the hope that the House should not waste hour after hour on discussion from which no conclusion comes. I would like to see the House come to a decision on this matter.

Mr. Hugh Jenkins: While agreeing with my right hon. Friend that it is right that the House should come to a decision on the Medical Termination of Pregnancy Bill, may I ask whether the House should not also come to a decision on my Employment Agencies Bill, which had its Second Reading on 24th June, 1966, and is, therefore, much the oldest of any Bill which has been before the House?

Mr. Crossman: As I said to my hon. Friend last week, I have a good deal of sympathy with him, and I am still hopeful that we shall be able to find time for his Bill, too.

Mr. Sandys: Now that the Prime Minister has decided to set up a Committee to give Colonel Lohan an opportunity to answer the charges which the Prime Minister made against him, will the right hon. Gentleman arrange for a White Paper to be published with the reports of the proceedings of this Committee?
On another matter, can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that there will be a debate on Lord Alport's conclusions?

Mr. Speaker: Order. One Business question is enough for each hon. Member.

Mr. Crossman: I said last week that we had better wait until Lord Alport gets back from Rhodesia, as the Prime Minister pointed out to the right hon. Gentleman a few minutes ago.
The right hon. Gentleman's first point is a question for the Prime Minister. The first thing is to have an inquiry.

Dr. David Owen: Could the Leader of the House say whether he sees any hope of having a debate on the Ministry of Social Security's Report on Circumstances of Families, which reveals some rather alarming facts?

Mr. Crossman: We have just received this Report, which is several hundred pages long. We had better look at it first. I shall try to digest it over the weekend. I would have thought that some aspect of it would be in order on one of the Supply days next week, when the care of the elderly is being debated. I give that as an example.

Mr. Frederic Harris: Is it not absolutely unfair and utterly ridiculous to force all-night sittings on Monday, Wednesday and Thursday of this next week? Is it not most unfair particularly to the staff and the policemen of the House?

Mr. Crossman: The question of all-night sittings depends on how long the discussion takes. This is particularly so with the Medical Termination of Pregnancy Bill, which has already had a good many hours. I am hopeful that next Thursday some better progress will be made than was made on the last occasion. It is perfectly neutral to say that we want a decision on the Bill one way or the other.

Mr. Whitaker: May I thank my right hon. Friend for his decision on behalf of my constituent the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) because it will enable his arguments to be evaluated in the Division Lobby?

Sir Knox Cunningham: Has the right hon. Gentleman made any special arrangement for the staff of the House in the early and late hours of Friday morning? Are the Galleries to be closed again?

Mr. Crossman: We have discussed this with the Serjeant at Arms. We shall have much the same arrangement as last

time. The arrangements worked very satisfactorily throughout the night.

Hon. Members: Where was the Leader of the House then?

Mr. Mayhew: Will the Leader of the House give the assurance that the forthcoming Defence White Paper, unlike the last one, will be made available to Members of the House at least as soon as it is made available to Press correspondents, including correspondents for Communist countries?

Mr. Crossman: I have not forgotten the complaint of my hon. Friend on the last occasion. I will certainly bear it in mind.

Mr. Lubbock: Would the Leader of the House say when the Minister of Power is likely to be making a statement on the Government's energy policy? Since the Conservative Opposition's Supply time has now been exhausted, will the Government give time for a debate on this matter?

Mr. Crossman: I do not think that Conservative Supply time is wholly exhausted. As for my right hon. Friend's statement on fuel, he will be making a statement on the Motion for the debate on the coal industry on Monday week.

Mr. Alfred Morris: Can the Leader of the House say what arrangements he is making for a debate on the two very important White Papers on Britain's application to join the Common Market which have been tabled since the debate which concluded on 10th May?

Mr. Crossman: We have not considered further a debate on entry to the Common Market, but if there is a demand for it, after we have studied my right hon. Friend's speech in The Hague, we will consider the possibilities. There will be an opportunity to discuss this in the foreign affairs debate, but I would not have thought that at present there was enough novel matter to justify a debate on this matter at this time of pressing business.

Mr. Evelyn King: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us on what date we are likely to reassemble after the Recess?

Mr. Crossman: No, Sir.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Has my right hon. Friend reconsidered the question of a debate on overseas aid, and, if so, with what effect?

Mr. Crossman: I have borne that question in mind. There are few opportunities, but I am hopeful for a whole day's debate on foreign affairs when speeches on overseas aid will clearly be in order.

Mr. Montgomery: In view of the large number of problems in education, can the right hon. Gentleman hold out any hope of having a debate on education before we rise for the Recess?

Mr. Crossman: I fear not. I see no prospect of it unless. the Opposition choose to debate the subject on one of their remaining Supply days.

Mr. Iain Macleod: Would the right hon. Gentleman look again at the question of time for Monday's business and bear in mind that normally the affirmative Order alone would be a day's business, let alone the Report stage and Third Reading? Would he take into account the fact that the First Secretary of State had to annul four Orders today because of the decision in the Court of Appeal and the inadequate consideration given to the Bill a year ago?

Mr. Crossman: Certainly. We will discuss it through the usual channels, but there are special reasons for urgency about the timing of this debate.

Mr. C. Pannell: Would my right hon. Friend appreciate that, in giving time next Thursday night to the Medical Termination of Pregnancy Bill, it is not the Bill which is at stake but the right of the majority of hon. Members on both sides to prevail? Would my right hon. Friend be encouraged by the fact that it has the overwhelming majority not only of the House, but of the country behind it?

Mr. Speaker: Order. We are straying into merits.

Mr. Crossman: I think that I should be straying from neutrality if I were to comment on the second part of my right hon. Friend's question. On the first part, it is worth remembering that a majority of hon. Members want the proceedings to take place on Thursday evening.

Sir W. Bromley-Davenport: In view of the importance of Thursday's debate, is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very earnest wish of many hon. Members on this side of the House that the Minister of Defence should reply first for Her Majesty's Government and not run away and speak last like the Prime Minister did in the debate on D Notices?

Mr. Crossman: If hon. Members opposite have wishes to put to my right hon. Friend, I will communicate them. I should have thought that in this case most hon. Members would like to hear a statement of the position from the Secretary of State for Defence at the beginning, and I will bear that in mind.

Mr. McNamara: As it is the right of hon. Members to oppose legislation which is proposed legitimately in the House, can my right hon. Friend say whether there is any alteration in the date when the House will rise for the Summer Recess?

Mr. Crossman: I do not think that I have announced the date for the rising of the House. It will depend on how we get on with our business.

Mr. St. John-Stevas: Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the objection of very many hon. Members is not to giving time for discussion of the abortion Bill, but the time of day, or rather of night, which has been fixed, which is greatly inconvenient for many hon. Members and surely not a suitable time to discuss issues of this gravity?

Mr. Crossman: I am aware that the time is not as convenient as other times, but I think that the majority of hon. Members feel that the inconvenience would be worth while if we could get a decision on the Bill.

Mr. Hogg: Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that Parliament is about discussion as well as voting and that the quality of discussion tends to deteriorate when the House is subjected to ordeal by all-night sitting?

Mr. Crossman: I would remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman that perhaps in 10 days' time we shall be having what is almost certainly a traditional all-night sitting on the Consolidated Fund Bill. I was requested by the Leader of the Opposition the other day to give an assurance that I would not


closure the debate on that Bill. Apparently, there are some all-night sittings which hon. Members like and some which they do not like.

Mr. Hector Hughes: Once again, may I ask my right hon. Friend to give time next week to discuss my Motion about giving seamen facilities to come home to visit their wives and families? Would it not be decent to do that, the Government having given time for the homosexual Bill last week?

[That this House is of opinion that for social, family, economic and other reasons the withdrawal by British Railways of the cheap fare railway vouchers hitherto available to seamen and their families is wrong as it frustrates family reunions, deprives British Railways of fares, diminishes British Railways income and now calls upon Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Minister of Transport, by legislation or otherwise, to restore to British seamen and their families the relevant facilities which they have hitherto enjoyed.]

Mr. Crossman: There is never a Thursday afternoon when my hon. and learned Friend does not think up a newer and more moving reason for my doing what I cannot do for him.

Sir W. Teeling: As the referendum in Gibraltar will be held between the rising of the House and October, will the right hon. Gentleman try to find time in which we can discuss this matter before we rise? The people in Gibraltar are absolutely at sixes and sevens about what we are offering them.

Mr. Crossman: I cannot accept the second part of the question. But I should have thought that this was another subject which could be mentioned in the debate on foreign affairs, if we have it.

Mr. John Wells: Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed Motion No. 371 standing in my name and the names of all Kent Conservative Members and a great many Members from rural areas in other parts of the country? He half promised time to debate the Motion earlier in the year. Can he find time to debate the problems of gipsies before the Summer Recess and preferably next week.

[That this House urges tier Majesty's Government to instruct all county councils

who have considerable populations of gipsies and other travellers to provide suitable sites for the accommodation of these people so that they do not move from county to county becoming a burden on the ratepayers of those counties who take an enlightened view of this problem and that sites provided should be small enough so that a few families are accommodated per parish and can be easily supervised and assimiliated into rural schools.]

Mr. Crossman: It was in a soft moment—I happen to be interested in gipsies, too—when I suggested the possibility of a debate a good many months ago. But I cannot give any assurance that the gipsies will be discussed before the Recess.

Sir F. Bennett: On next Thursday night's business, and speaking as one who has taken no active part in the debates on the Bill, will not the right hon. Gentleman have another look at the matter? The Government, by their conduct and blatent unneutrality, are stimulating controversy and delay rather than achieving the opposite.

Mr. Crossman: I do not think that there is anything in that question which makes me add anything which I have said before without getting away from neutrality.

Mr. Gresham Cooke: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that when he announced the procedural reforms early this Session he gave a promise that Members would get away from the House at 9.30 on Thursday nights?

Mr. Crossman: The promise which I gave was that the business under the Government's control would be taken at a reasonable time on Thursdays. This has regularly been the case. The real problem is whether we should, after that, provide an opportunity for those hon. Members who want to stay—that is a minority—to discuss an important Measure. I do not think that that in any way violates the pledge which I made about the Government's business.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY)

Ordered,
That this day Business other than the Business of Supply may be taken before Ten o'clock.—[Mr. Crossman.]

Orders of the Day — SUPPLY

[24TH ALLOTTED DAY] [2nd Series],—considered.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Gourlay.]

MIDDLE EAST

3.58 p.m.

Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I am well aware that, from a Foreign Secretary's point of view, no day is the right day to debate the Middle East. Nevertheless, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State has made a speech so widely acclaimed in Europe in the last few days that perhaps he will achieve a double tonight. We hope so.
However, there has been a general feeling in the House that the course of the recent momentous events in the Middle East should be reviewed by hon. Members. They have affected British interests in many ways—commercial, financial and political—and they pose many questions about the future of an area which is still regarded in terms of power politics, which, unhappily, still prevail as a vital element in the world's balance of power.
It is hard to remember that it is barely five weeks since Colonel Nasser's ultimatum to the United Nations peacekeeping force—it is well to remember that that is what it was, a peacekeeping force—and that it was ejected from Egyptian territory; that the fight was precipitated; that it aroused passions inherent in a Holy War; that there was deployed on the ground much more hardware in tanks and armoured vehicles than there was at the Battle of Alamein; that the rout of the Egyptians was complete and yet, since that rout, propaganda has been engaged in daily turning defeat into victory. In that atmosphere, in the aftermath of convulsion and in this world of fancy and make-believe in which so many are living at the moment, it is difficult for reality to be heard.
When the dust is settled, there is one fact which no one can ignore, and anyone who encourages an Arab to ignore it

must be a false friend of Arabia. The fact is that the State of Israel is there to stay, and it is a fact of life in the area of the Middle East. I believe that it is right that we should say to our Arabian friends that Colonel Nasser's vision of Pan-Arabia, of which the inspiration and purpose was to drive Israel into the sea and exterminate that State, was a delusion which has twice led his country and those who trusted him into war and to total defeat, with ruin round the corner. There is no hope for Arabia, or, indeed, for any Arab country along that road.
We can well understand the feelings of the Arabs led into a war of Egypt's ambitions—a war which was aided and abetted by the Soviet Union for her own selfish and political ends. We would like to help the Arab countries, but not even their best friends can do very much until coexistence is admitted in word and in deed.
Hon. Members may have seen that the Prime Minister of Jordan is reported as having said yesterday in his Parliament that Arab thinking about Israel must be reorganised and that the Arabs must abandon the policies that they have held towards Israel for the last 19 years. In the circumstances, that is a very brave thing to have said. It is also a very sensible thing to have said. It is, indeed, the first sign that reality is entering into the situation. I hope that Jordan and other Arab countries can build on that, with the assistance of Israel and the assistance of Arabia's friends.
In the present atmosphere of emotion and charge and counter-charge, for some time to come there will be no agreement in the United Nations on the form of a peace settlement or on its content. But whether the eventual peace is negotiated direct between Israel and each individual Arab country concerned, which, I suggest, would be the way in which an agreement is most likely to stick in future years, or whether others assist in the process, there are two main themes which must dominate any peace treaty. The first is the physical frontiers of Israel. The other is the removal of injustices arising from the treatment of Arab refugees over the years, which has done so much to sour the already difficult relations between Israel and the Arab world.
Taking, first, the physical frontiers of Israel, after two wars, when Israel's life has been literally at stake, all the indications are that she will feel bound to retain those geographical features which give her the maximum security for the future so that her life cannot be threatened again. The only modification which Israel might be willing to make in that would be international guarantees so specific as to amount to an automatic response to aggression; in other words, guarantees so specific that they would in fact amount to an alliance. But one must remember that the State of Israel has not much faith in international guarantees following the fate of the Tripartite Declaration. The alternative would be for buffer armies of the United Nations to be placed between her and the possible aggressors which could not be ordered out by any one party to a dispute in future.
It is possible that the United Nations might assist at a peace conference, but it cannot do so effectively, clearly, unless the Soviet Union, having saved a bit of her face and replaced some of the lost arms, decided to cut her losses and cooperate in peace making. However, I feel that the most likely rôle of the United Nations, which, incidentally, it is better equipped to play than taking part in the actual peace conference, would be to provide adequate forces to police those zones of territory which it may be agreed at a peace conference should be demilitarised on both sides of whatever frontiers might be settled. I would not for a moment attempt to define such areas or the frontiers of a future Israel. Any such attempt would be most foolish and futile and ought to be resisted.
Having said that, is there any constructive action in the immediate aftermath of war which might be taken by Her Majesty's Government, by themselves or together with others, to extract some of the poison out of the Middle East?
There is one action which could be taken, and I hope that the Foreign Secretary or the Minister of State will be able to refer to it. It is an internationally-financed programme to bring water and cultivation and to resettle the Arab refugees in a new and dignified life on the west bank of the Jordan, in the waste spaces of Israel and in the Gaza Strip. One must begin with those territories.

Later, one can come to the Euphrates Valley and Iraq, which are very much under-populated at present. Later, too, one can come to Sinai, if international co-operation is available on the necessary scale.
For the time being, many hon. Members will have read the letter written to The Times recently by Mr. Edmund Rothschild and a follow-up article analysing the feasibility of such a project for the west bank, for Israel and for the Gaza Strip. I have had an opportunity of examining the proposal with Mr. Rothschild in more detail. I am no technician, but this has been gone into in great detail and depth by those who are, and they say that there is room to settle 125,000 families in these areas if three desalination plants, perhaps two in Israel, or perhaps one in the Gaza Strip and one in Israel, with the third in Jordan, could be made available to produce the water. The cost would be in the region of 800 million dollars. It could be a truly international scheme, in that we could produce the plant, the Americans could produce the plant, and so could the Russians if they were willing to co-operate.
The Government must obviously be satisfied that the project is feasible and that the estimates are realistic, but I hope that this matter will be treated as urgent. Under such a scheme, water can be brought to those who want it, and in those parts of the world it is literally life. It can be brought irrespective of frontiers, so it need not necessarily await a peace settlement under which the frontiers will be drawn. It may well be that where politics fail to induce coexistence and peace, the water of life might do so, or at least start the possibility of a fresh coexistence between Arab and Jew in Jordan in Israel and in the Gaza Strip.
There are two specific matters to which I aske the right hon. Gentleman to refer. I have no doubt he can assure us that every diplomatic effort is still being deployed to persuade the Arabs of the folly, and, incidentally, of the injustice, of cutting off oil from Britain, but I think that there is one point which ought to be made in justice to the Arab countries, and particularly those in the Gulf. If Britain has to make new arrangements with other countries, such contracts can


only be made if they are long-term contracts. The Arab countries should realise this, and understand exactly what it would mean to them if Britain were driven to do so.
I interpolate here that tonight we will give the right hon. Gentleman the Bill for petrol rationing. There may be some points to raise on it, I do not know, but the Nigerian situation alone makes it imperative that the Government should have the Bill, and that it should be got through the House.
The second matter which I wish to raise relates to the Suez Canal. What is the right hon. Gentleman's information about the blocking of the canal? Is it blocked or is it not? I have been given very circumstantial evidence from eyewitnesses that there is no evidence of blocking. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can confirm this, I simply do not know. But whether that is so or not, is it not a fact that in respect of this waterway the Egyptians have accepted the jurisdiction of the International Court? If they have, why has an injunction not been laid requiring Egypt to open it to all international shipping?
If that should fail—and surely it ought to be tried?—and if, as I think is certain, in her bankruptcy; destitution is probably the right word—Egypt, during the next six months or so, has to turn to the United States for wheat, in particular, and for other forms of aid, will the right hon. Gentleman impress on the United States Government, if they need impressing, that they have a leverage which they should use to ensure that this international waterway is open to the shipping of all nations?
I turn now to the politics of the Middle East, and to the influence on them of British policy in Aden. There have for many years been two rival political philosophies at work in the Middle East. There are revolutionaries, led by Egypt and Syria, who rely on armed revolt and violence to achieve the political aims of Arab self-sufficiency, and there are in opposition to them those countries whose basic desire is to build up gradually but surely the economic and social advance of their people in peace. The leaders of this school are South Arabia and Iran. The revolutionaries have added fear to

their armoury, partly because they have enjoyed the support of the Soviet Union in arms, and partly because South Arabia, ever since Col. Nasser entered the Yemen, has been very vulnerable to attack since Egypt's war began, and should Egypt in any circumstances win the Yemen war.
This is a slight over-simplification, but, nevertheless, there is a lot of truth in what I am going to say about Egypt's eclipse as a military power. Some weapons may have been restored from the Soviet Union to Cairo—I think a token number of weapons—but one cannot restore reluctance to fight, or morale to any army. I think, therefore, that Egypt's eclipse as a military power—and I think that realistically one must put it as high as that—has given the exponents of moderation and evolution a new chance to assert themselves. It is in this setting, and against this very fine balance which has prevailed in the Middle East over recent years, that British policy and action in South Arabia must be judged and become supremely important.
Even if there was no oil in this area I would still be standing here today and arguing strongly for the protection of South Arabia in the early years of independence, and for a British presence in the Gulf, because I believe that this can tilt the scales on the side of comparative political stability in this vital area. Certainly, the right hon. Gentleman knows that such a decision by Her Majesty's Government could give confidence to South Arabia, to Iran, and to the Sheikhdoms of the Gulf.
In the last debate on Aden we on this side of the House asked the Government for assurances about security in Aden. We asked that enough troops should be sent to Aden to keep order. We asked, above all, that the local commander, when he had the troops, should be given the authority to use the weapons which were needed for the job, something which is essential in tackling problems of this kind. We asked that the Crater should be cleared of terrorists. All these things have been done. Very late, but they have been done; and one must say that the Crater operation was carried out with extraordinary skill and very clever timing—the best answer, I would suggest, to those defeatists who say that Britain has


no rôle to play in sustaining order overseas. I would like to express my admiration for the grip which Sir Humphrey Trevelyan has taken on the situation. He was sent there in very difficult, some would say almost impossible, conditions.
There is one further question to which I must return and ask the right hon. Gentleman to answer—question of arms in Aden at large with the civilian population. I have here a letter dated 22nd June, some little time ago, from the manager of an important British concern, in which he says:
Our building was hit by bazooka fire and swarms of armed men came to the front of the building shooting into the windows.
This kind of information can be reproduced time and again from those who write back home from Aden today. For far too long—and I made this point some weeks and months ago now—too many arms have been in evidence, held by irresponsible people in Aden. What steps are being taken to call them in? The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs said the other day that this matter was being considered, and I would like to know the answer, because this is urgent.
Finally, the Foreign Secretary, we are told, is engaged on broadening the basis, or trying to broaden it, of the Federal Government. No one could be more skilful than Sir Humphrey Trevelyan at this kind of thing. He has great experience in it. If genuine co-operation can be assured, then the broader the base of the Government, clearly the greater confidence there will be in the future. No one disputes this. The Foreign Secretary has all the evidence about F.L.O.S.Y. He knows that they have cast their lot in with the revolutionaries. Some of the demands—I do not know whether this is true—which it is rumoured have been made of the existing Federal Government cause me some disquiet.
Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can give the House his ideas. I can only say now that he must be well aware that if the present Federal Ministers are pushed beyond their better judgment of the Federation's interest for the future the right hon. Gentleman could be left with no Government at all. Then the fat would be in the fire. I ask for the greatest caution in the rearrangement of

the Government, and that Federal Ministers who have been through so much should be kept in power.
For well over two years, in the opinion of this side of the House, there has been indecision and vacillation over the future of South Arabia. The right hon. Gentleman has examined the situation and, to his credit, he has come to different conclusions from those with which he started. But now, every aspect of this situation—military, constitutional and political—demands resolution and decision. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to show us in the speech that he makes tonight that this is forthcoming, so that out of the turmoil of the Middle East something to the credit of mankind may be saved.

4.21 p.m.

The Minister of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Thomson): The House has had many opportunities during the last few weeks to discuss both the Arab-Israel conflict and the problem of South Arabia. The advantage of the debate which the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) has just opened is that it enables us to discuss the problems of the Middle East—the Arab-Israeli conflict, South Arabia, and other aspects of the Middle East—as a whole. One of the useful features of this is that it enables us to remind ourselves that, while we may be preoccupied with the Arab-Israeli conflict, our main interests in the Middle East and our most direct responsibilities there lie elsewhere than at the northern end of the Red Sea.
The countries in the Middle Eastern area are on a good deal better terms with Her Majesty's Government than would sometimes appear from the recent weeks of crisis. A breach of relations with this country always makes the headlines, whereas a decision to continue relations with us seldom counts as news. I find in the Foreign Office, as in Fleet Street, where I used to work, that the sad fact of life is that vice is news, but virtue is not.
Although our efforts to avert the war before it broke out, and to contain and limit it after it broke out, were misunderstood and misinterpreted in the Arab world, we have been able to maintain our links with the majority


of Arab Governments, and our differences with certain other Arab Governments, who have not maintained relations with us, have not been of our own making. We would like to have good relations with these countries. We wish them and their people well. We can sympathise with and try to understand their aspirations and desires for a better social order within their own countries.
We are not opposed to Arab nationalism and in so far as we have clashed with it our quarrel has been only with certain manifestations of it which seem to us to have worked in a negative and destructive way. It is also worth recalling, with the opening of this general Middle Eastern debate, that the Middle East is more than the Arab world. Our relations with Iran remain close, and we shall continue to foster them.
The main development in the Arab/Israeli conflict since my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary last reported to the House has been—blessedly—the battle of words that has been fought at the United Nations, rather than any serious breaches of the cease-fire. There has been some fighting on the east bank of the Suez Canal, but reports do not suggest that the clashes have been on a large scale. What ever may have been their origin, we deplore these breaches of the cease-fire and we shall give full support to the United Nations' efforts to bring them to an end.
I want to give the House a report on the United Nations debate. As the House knows, after two weeks of discussion the General Assembly has failed to agree on any general political recommendation. It has now adjourned for a week. I hope that this breathing space may be used urgently to evolve some agreed and constructive expression of the Assembly's views. Any agreement will have to result in both balanced and realistic terms. This is surely the message of the deliberations of the last two weeks in New York.
The issue was focused in two resolutions. There was a draft resolution from a group of "non-aligneds" delegations, with Arab and Communist support, which went through a considerable amount of change before it came to the vote. But in the end, despite a number of amendments, it remained the case that Israel was to withdraw immediately, while the Security Council was merely to consider

action on other points without any urgency.
In effect, therefore, the resolution of the non-aligned group remained a call for unconditional withdrawal. In addition, it made no mention of other practical problems, especially the end of belligerence. Even in its amended form the draft resolution was, therefore, fundamentally lacking in balance. In partciular, it was unrealistic to expect that it would achieve an Israeli withdrawal. Her Majesty's Government had, therefore, to cast their vote against it. So did 45 other delegations, including members of almost every group in the General Assembly.
The British Government voted for the other resolution, sponsored by Latin American delegations. It was not a perfect resolution, in our view. For example, it did not propose the appointment of a special representative of the Secretary-General, as put forward by my right hon. Friend, but it would have provided for a withdrawal from occupied territory. It would have called for a guarantee for the freedom of innocent passage through international waters, and it stated other essential principles. We warmly welcomed the reference in it to the need for a full solution of the problem of the refugees. This resolution, sponsored by the Latin Americans, in our view offered a prospect of making progress towards withdrawal and a durable peace.
Our decision on these two resolutions was taken on grounds of effectiveness. Without withdrawal there is no prospect of progress towards stability in the Middle East. Without acceptance of the territorial integrity of States—which means the dropping of any claim to belligerence—there is little hope of withdrawal. We voted for the resolution which was balanced and against the resolution which, because of what it left out, would have put the chances of success in jeopardy.
What then, is the outcome of the General Assembly debate? In the first place, the General Assembly adopted with near unanimity two resolutions—one on refugees and the other on Jerusalem—both of which we supported. The resolution on Jerusalem was passed by 99 votes, with none against and 20 abstentions. It represented, in my view, a firm international concensus against Israel's taking


any unilateral action which would prejudice the status of that city in a final settlement. It was striking endorsement of what the Foreign Secretary said on this subject at the Assembly. His remarks then were misunderstood and misinterpreted in some quarters. But, not for the first time, when the dust has settled his judgment and his instinct have been confirmed.
In the second place, the Assembly—so it seemed to me—showed a growing sense of realism during the debate. It paid scant regard to the more extreme condemnatory resolutions tabled by the Soviet Union and Albania. Speaker after speaker emphasised, as my right hon. Friend had done on 21st June, the need for balance and a practical approach. There was widespread endorsement of the British suggestions for practical action. The House may recall the three particular points made by my right hon. Friend.
First, he said that we must deal at once with the question of refugees. I shall say something in more detail about that in a moment. Secondly, he said that the Secretary-General should nominate a representative of high standing to go at once to the area to explore with all the parties the possibilities of conciliation, and then report to the Secretary-General. Thirdly, he suggested that there should be an immediate strengthening of the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation which, under General Bull, has done such fine work.
My right hon. Friend, in his speech at the General Assembly, urged that the Government of Israel might permit General Bull to reoccupy Government House in Jerusalem, the headquarters from which he had been excluded during the fighting there. I am glad to report to the House that the Israeli Government have now agreed to this.
The results of the debate represented a reverse for those who called the emergency special session with the plain purpose of making destructive propaganda rather than seeking to make a positive and constructive contribution to a peaceful settlement. I would not describe what has happened as a failure for the United Nations. Rather, out of the debate and the very frustrations of the voting, has come a certain pattern which all parties

to the Arab-Israel conflict would do well to ponder.
It is clear that a substantial body of world opinion does not support the attempt to condemn Israel or the unconditional call for the withdrawal of Israeli forces, but, on the other hand, virtually every member of the Assembly voted for one resolution or another which called for the withdrawal of Israeli troops as well as against any action to alter the status of Jerusalem. If both sides to the conflict will draw the lesson from this, the hopes for a practical solution will be greatly improved.
Equally, there was a wide range of agreement with my right hon. Friend's view that any arrangement for Israeli withdrawal must deal with other fundamental matters in which both parties to the conflict have a legitimate interest. I would mention two. First, as rightly mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, is the need for action—for swift action, I hope, dramatic action to safeguard the interests and welfare of the refugees. This is an immediate humanitarian problem and one whose solution is basic to any general and enduring peace settlement to the conflict.
No settlement will be possible while the million Arab refugees continue to exist in the demoralising condition of receiving international charity and it is tragic that the recent war added a new dimension to this already intractable problem by the flight across the Jordan of about 150,000 refugees, mostly destitute Arabs. Although most were in refugee camps on the west bank before, they must now be found new accommodation.
Her Majesty's Government have made urgent representations to the Israeli Government on this problem. We stressed the need not only to refrain from driving the Arab refugees out of the occupied territories on the west bank, but to encourage them to stay and to allow those who had left to return. We therefore welcome the news that the Israeli Government has invited those who have left since 7th June to come back to the west bank. Behind all this, there lies the question of confidence; if the Israelis can win confidence in their intentions, a further tragic displacement may be avoided.
I would here pay tribute to the work of U.N.R.W.A. over the years to educate and


clothe and feed the refugees and generally care for them. No one who, like myself, has seen its work in the camps can doubt that, without its efforts, an admittedly tragic situation would have been an absolute catastrophe. We have made an immediate additional contribution of a half a million dollars to U.N.R.W.A. and have also given £500,000 to the Jordanian Government for expenditure on rehabilitation and reconstruction.
I have heard criticisms that our emergency contribution in this respect has not been adequate, but I cannot accept that. We are already the second largest contributor after the United States and have been during the whole 17 years of this United Nations agency's life. This year, we shall reach the 100 million dollar mark in our contributions. I do not want to make invidious comparisons but, while the heaviest burden is carried by the United States, it is proper to put this in perspective and mention that, apart from the United States, all the other contributor nations put together have contributed less than three-quarters of Her Majesty's Government's contribution over the years under successive Governments. The Soviet Government, which are so generous with its arms to countries in the Middle East, have contributed nothing at all.
I now turn to the question of freedom for all countries in the Middle East from the pressures which have driven them to waste their scarce resources on a wholly unproductive arms race. New countries are now becoming involved in the business of supplying arms to the Middle East. Fresh consignments of Soviet arms are already arriving in Egypt and other Arab countries to replace those destroyed in the war. I do not seek to argue that, at this stage, the Soviet Government is planning to rearm Arab countries to the point at which a further conflict would become inevitable.
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the Soviet motive at this stage is much more likely to be diplomatic than military, but the dangers inherent in a new Middle East arms race are patent to all, and this fresh flow of the munitions of war underlines the need for a fresh international agreement on arms limitation. We made one effort to start something on these lines and failed. We

cannot act alone. The arms race is a symptom and the disease can be cured only by a peace settlement, but we shall continue trying to bring about international agreement for the limitation of arms flowing into the Middle East.
I have outlined the principles on which we believe that a constructive settlement must be based, but how is it to be achieved? The right hon. Gentleman dealt with this point. The Israel Government have, understandably, insisted on direct negotiations with individual Arab States. This, of course, would be desirable if it were likely to happen, but we cannot be optimistic that direct contacts between Israel and her Arab neighbours are likely in the immediate future, and must, therefore, apply our minds to what other means there are of promoting progress.
In this, of course, we come back to the United Nations. Whatever the shortcomings of the organisation—we do not seek to ignore them—we believe that it can provide a framework in which a settlement can be arranged. Despite the differences which manifested themselves at the Security Council during the earler discussions, it is still our view that the Council can play a constructive part in the phase which lies ahead. Naturally, this pre-supposes a measure of agreement among permanent members of the Council which has often been lacking in the past, but, whatever the differences in approach now, we all have a common interest in avoiding a further round of Arab-Israel fighting.
If this were to happen, it might next time carry with it even more dangerous possibilities of direct confrontation between great Powers, with the possible use of nuclear weapons by the combatants themselves, making the outcome alarming for mankind as a whole. These are the kind of stakes involved in seeking a settlement of the conflict.
I too would like now to turn from the Arab-Israel dispute to some of the other Middle Eastern issue, particularly that of South Arabia—

Mr. R. T. Paget: My right hon. Friend says that it depends on the Security Council agreeing, but agreeing on what? That the Arabs must be compelled to make peace, or that, without peace, Israel should be driven from


positions which she regards as necessary to security during war? What does he say the United Nations should agree upon?

Mr. Thomson: In our view, it ought to agree on the kind of balanced settlement which we have supported at the special Session and which I tried to spell out earlier in my speech.
In the Security Council, despite the deep differences, I believe that there is bound to be in the end—it may mean a long, patient struggle—a common interest in preventing a further round of Arab-Israel fighting, with all the implications which I described. This is the best hope of making progress. It is very easy to point to the obstacles, but one must be realistic about difficulties in the way of any sort of direct, face-to-face negotiation in this situation.
I want to turn to the wider Middle Eastern scene—

Earl of Dalkeith: Have any discussions been taking place on reviving some scheme like the Johnston Plan, which was turned down by the Arabs, as a means of providing some relief for refugees?

Mr. Thomson: Like the right hon. Gentleman, I read with great interest the proposals put forward by Mr. de Rothschild for a desalination scheme to link both water and power, which would be aimed at producing or contributing towards a reconciliation between the countries in the area. I prefer to leave that to my right hon. Friend to deal with when winding-up at the end of the debate.
I want to go on to talk about our more general interest in the Middle East. We have, of course, the general interest of seeking peaceful change throughout the whole Middle Eastern area. We have as a Government and as a nation an interest—indeed, it is a moral imperative—in asserting the principle of the right of small nations, whether Arab or Jewish, in the Middle East to survive and to enjoy territorial integrity. I believe that we can best pursue those interests through the United Nations, where our contribution can be an important one.
It is, however, in other parts of the Middle East that we have more direct responsibilities and obligations. In South Arabia and the Persian Gulf, we have

obligations which we cannot simply shrug away. We have responsibilities which we have to carry out. Throughout the area, we have legitimate direct national interests, in building up our trade, in the passage of our ships and aeroplanes freely from one part of the world to another. We have those interests to defend and protect. It is important to keep this in perspective.
The Government are, for example, often criticised for expanding militarily in the Gulf while withdrawing militarily from Aden. I would like to say a word to my hon. Friends about why, in my view, this does not seem to be the inconsistent policy which they often describe it as being.
The reason for taking that step in the Gulf is the necessity for us to be able to fulfil peacekeeping obligations in the Gulf area that were formerly undertaken from Aden. The Gulf is a cockpit of territorial rivalries. It is true that they are less fanatical than those along the Arab-Israel frontiers, but they are still very dangerous rivalries. If the British Government were suddenly to withdraw, we would leave behind us a dangerous vacuum which might well precipitate in another part of the Middle East a dangerous great Power confrontation.
Her Majesty's Government's aim is to build up a stable regional balance of power between the countries of the area, but to do that takes time. Our forces are not there to keep the oil flowing, as is often charged. They have, therefore, not failed in that task, because it was never a task which was laid upon them. They are there as a peace-keeping presence.
It is sometimes argued that if we had no military presence in the Gulf, our oil interests would not have suffered in the aftermath of the Arab-Israeli conflict. I believe that to be a fallacy. The Americans, without bases or forces on Arab soil, have suffered just the same as us.
Our oil has been affected for two reasons: because of a lie about our intervention in the Arab-Israeli conflict; and, secondly, because the British Government were willing to take a lead in trying to prevent a war which, when it happened, brought much suffering to many of our friends in the Arab world.
The right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire said a few words about the oil situation and I would like to give the House some information about the latest position. The Arab countries generally have now resumed exports to most destinations, although in the case of both Iraq and Libya the position is not wholly clear about how much oil is flowing. The Arab oil countries are, however, still maintaining a ban on exports to the United Kingdom and the United States.
I understand the pressures which operated on those Governments in the highly-charged atmosphere at the time when they took action against their oil exports, but now that some of the tensions have eased I very much hope, as the right hon. Gentleman has urged, that cooler counsels will soon prevail.
The oil-producing countries must be aware, as the right hon. Gentleman said, that while the present ban creates temporary inconvenience for us, it is also bound to provoke some fundamental rethinking about the degree to which Western economies depend upon Arab oil. There is a swiftly changing pattern of energy resources and vast technological developments in the energy field. By 1980 even on present plans, we will have increased our nuclear power and our natural gas output by many times. The implications of this are plain for Arab countries. I hope, therefore, that it will once again be recognised all round that the interests represented by our very substantial oil investments in the Arab world and by the supplying companies there are of mutual economic benefit to both sides. The lifting of the ban on shipments to us is, at the very least, as much in Arab interests as it is in ours.
The right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire asked what diplomatic efforts we were making in that direction. We have been extremely active in putting the point of view which I have just described. My noble Friend at the United Nations has engaged in an intensive period of personal diplomacy with the Arab Foreign Ministers who were there which, I think, made a notable contribution to improving understanding and restoring relations between ourselves and the majority of countries in the Arab world.
The ban on oil exports to the United Kingdom and the United States does not create for us an insuperable problem. To deal with the general problem of Europe's oil supplies, the O.E.C.D., with our full support, has taken measures aimed at maximising supplies and rationalising deliveries. The key problem is not so much that there is not enough oil being produced in the Middle East, but that the closure of the Suez Canal and the restricted use of the Levant pipelines mean that tankers have to make the much longer journey from east of Suez round the Cape. Therefore, many more tankers are required and the flow of oil takes a longer time.
There is also the new uncertainty about the future of the flow of oil from Nigeria due to the political situation in that country. It is because of these uncertainties and the impossibility of forecasting developments during the Summer Recess, which is shortly about to begin, that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power is introducing as a precautionary measure his oil rationing Bill later tonight. I am grateful for the assurance from the Opposition that they will facilitate the passage of that Measure.
That brings me to the right hon. Gentleman's question about the present position regarding the Suez Canal. It is certainly our information that the canal is physically blocked, not in one place, but in several places. It is difficult to form an actual estimate of how long it would take physically to clear the canal, but this is much more a political than an engineering problem.
The first thing to keep in mind from the point of view of this country is that free passage through the canal is not simply a British interest. We would be in a difficult position if that were so. It is an important general international interest. For example, I understand that one of the ships which is blocked in the canal is an American ship carrying much-needed wheat supplies to India to relieve the food shortage in that country. I hope that the international community as a whole will take active steps to seek to bring about a reopening of the canal.

Mr. Eldon Griffiths (Bury St. Edmunds): The right hon. Gentleman has made the important statement that the


canal is physically blocked. Can he elaborate a little and say where and how it is blocked and on what basis that conclusion is arrived at? Has there been aerial reconnaissance? Has the embassy or our representative in Cairo been able to go and see it? Can the right hon. Gentleman give more detail?

Mr. Thomson: The hon. Member is an eager hunter after facts, but I hope that he will understand if I do not give him the source of the information which I have just conveyed to the House. I ask him, however, to believe that it is well founded. It is a physical blocking by ships which are sunk in the canal.

Mr. Neil Marten: I realise that the right hon. Gentleman cannot give the source of the information, but what has worried many of us was the extreme delay—I think 10 days—in getting that information, according to the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why there was that delay in getting the information?

Mr. Thomson: The reason for the delay was that a war was going on. It would have been extremely difficult to get exact information. Whereas it is easy for journalists to speculate about information which they receive, Ministers have to have corroborative evidence before they can give the House firm information. I have given the House this information.
I emphasise that this is a political rather than a physical problem. Therefore, one should concentrate on the political aspects of it. The fact is that within the last day or two the breaches of the cease-fire have involved fighting along the banks of the canal. This shows how difficult it is to make progress towards reopening the canal if we take this matter simply in isolation from dealing with the general range of problems associated with the Arab-Israel conflict.

Mr. Douglas Dodds-Parker: Who sank the ships? How big are they? Have any attempts been made to raise them?

Mr. Thomson: I would rather not speculate on that point at the moment, but would keep to my main point, which

is that the United Nations has an important rôle to play in terms of establishing free and innocent passage through this great international waterway.
The other major interest which we have in the Middle East, apart from oil and the free passage through the canal, is our general trading interest. Last year, for example, our exports to the area of the Middle East exceeded £300 million. The employment, therefore, of many of the constituents of many of us in the House, depends upon that trade with the Middle East carrying on and, if possible, expanding, and, therefore, depends a great deal upon our being able to maintain and improve our relations with all countries of the Middle East, on both sides of the conflict and those who are not directly involved in the conflict itself. In safeguarding all those interests which I have been describing, we have an immediate task in repairing the damage to our relations with the Arab countries caused by the erroneous belief that we took the Israeli side in the fighting.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me what we had done to dispose of these false allegations. Over recent weeks we have been engaged in the most intensive campaign, using every information medium available to us in order to get round the world the truth of what happened. We had a most useful talk with King Hussein in London earlier this week, and we were glad to see that King Hussein said publicly that he had no evidence whatever that the United States and the United Kingdom were involved on the Israeli side in the fighting. We have not been able to get an investigation mounted by the United Nations, but my right hon. Friend came back from the special General Assembly convinced that at the United Nations now there is very little, if any, credence given to these allegations.
I want to come to the problems of South Arabia raised by the right hon. Gentleman. South Arabia, like other parts of the Middle East, has been affected by the Arab-Israeli conflict, and it was the mounting tensions caused by the effect of that conflict that were the background to the mutiny of the Federal forces, even though the origin of that mutiny lay directly in internal tribal and personal troubles. I know that the House agrees with what the right hon. Gentleman said in welcoming the news


that British forces have completely reoccupied Crater. This was achieved with the minimum of casualties. Two Arabs were killed during the entire operations. This was a spectacular example of the British Army. The military and political difficulties were formidable.
I know that the House will wish to join in congratulating all concerned on the success of the operation and on the professional skill and patience—which was not wholly shared in the House during the period we had to wait—with which the local authorities, military and civil, have handled this most dangerous situation.
As the House knows, the High Commissioner and the Commander-in-Chief considered that to seek to re-establish British control of Crater earlier would have brought the risk of heavy bloodshed. It was right not to take that risk at that time. Their judgment on the delicate and difficult question of timing has been amply justified. I was asked by the right hon. Gentleman whether there had been any undue delay in the matter, although I think that he agreed that timing was of the essence in the decision that had to be taken.

Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: The right hon. Gentleman has rightly paid tribute to the action of our troops in Aden and Crater. Are these troops considered officially to be on active service when they are operating inside Aden and inside Crater? My information is that the troops believe that they are not. They believe that when their friends suffer casualities, the widows will not get full active Service pensions.

Mr. Thomson: That is a very important matter, although it is primarily for the Defence Department. My right hon. Friend will give the hon. and gallant Gentleman an answer at the end of the debate.
In view of some Press comments, I want to add that the High Commissioner and the Commander-in-Chief, together with the Security Commander, have worked throughout on the problems of Crater and of internal security in Aden generally in the closest consultation and agreement. Any illusion in any quarter that we were prepared to abdicate from

our responsibilities in Crater has been shattered. As I have said many times in the House, it is our duty to maintain law and order in Aden, and we shall carry out that duty for as long as we have responsibility in Aden.
The right hon. Gentleman asked me some questions about the authority for using weapons on this difficult task of internal security in Aden. There were suggestions that our troops were restricted during the earlier incidents in Crater by not being able to use heavy weapons. There is no truth in this at all. The local commanders have—and have always had—authority to sanction the use of whatever weapons are necessary in the circumstances. Obviously, many factors have to be taken into consideration, among them the question whether the degree of ill-feeling caused among the local population by the excessive use of force outweighs the tactical military advantage gained. I consider that the success of the Crater operation is the fullest vindication of the tactics which have been used and of the judgment of both the military and the civil people in control there.

Dame Irene Ward: In view of what the right hon. Gentleman said, when these suggestions were made earlier why was no public statement made immediately to the House and to the country? This matter has caused immense anxiety among the Royal Northumberland Fusiliers and other regiments associated with them. If the statement which he made is true, and if he believes it, is it not extraordinary that he did not—or the Foreign Secretary—make a statement right away? It would have allayed a great deal of the anxiety.

Mr. Thomson: Whatever the hon. Lady cares to believe, I hope that the rest of the House will believe what I have just said. I am simply repeating in a longer form what I said to the House very late at night last Wednesday, when we were discussing the Committee stage of the Aden Bill. There has also been a Question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. I appreciate the anxieties which were aroused and I tried to meet them in the middle of last week.
The right hon. Gentleman also asked me, as he has asked many times, about


the question of arms in the hands of civilians inside the Crater area and the com- plaints that civilians in Aden go about carrying arms. I would tell the House that the instructions to our forces are very firm and direct on this matter. They are that all unauthorised arms should be taken into custody under any circumstances where that is practicable. Again, our troops have another difficult task on their hands, but I know that they have done everything possible to carry it out. There is a real problem.
From his experience on other occasions in earlier years, the right hon. Gentleman knows some of the difficulties of putting an effective stop to the flow of arms to terrorist groups in an area such as Aden. I can only say that the new High Commissioner, Sir Humphrey Trevelyan, is actively seized of the problem and is doing everything possible to improve the position about the spread of arms among civilians.
We have to plan in South Arabia and in Aden on the assumption that the internal security situation will remain difficult for some time. This is the reason why we decided to fly out an additional battalion to Aden last week to lighten the load on the troops already there, who had been fully stretched in recent months. At the same time our troops' protective duties will be eased by the departure of all the families of Servicemen and British civilian officials, as well as most of the non-official families, which will be completed by the middle of this month.
It is appropriate for a word to be said here on behalf of Her Majesty's Government in praise of all our British civilians in South Arabia, both official and non-official, who have soldiered on—I think that the verb is appropriate—in warlike conditions for a very long time, indeed, in conditions in which their day-to-day work has been increasingly unpleasant and increasingly dangerous. They have been working, and are continuing to work, for the benefit and prosperity of South Arabia. When the present troubles are over, I believe that the South Arabian people will say that they owe a debt of gratitude to the many civilians and their families who stuck it out in conditions of such difficulty.
We shall seek progressively to hand over districts of Aden town to local security forces before independence, to

accustom them to the problems which they will face after independence. But, until independence, the High Commissioner and British Security Commander will retain overall responsibility and operational command for these activities; and I think that recent events will have convinced the House how essential is this final safeguard.

Mr. Ben Whitaker: Would my right hon. Friend agree that the best and surest method of ensuring the security of Aden and the Persian Gulf in the future would be to evolve a democratic Government for both of these places, a Government which is representative of the majority of the population?

Mr. Thomson: I agree with my hon. Friend and I was hoping to come to that matter.
I apologise to the House for having spoken at such length. The constitution which my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary commended to the House is, I believe, a modern Constitution, one which provides a framework within which all groups of different political views can come together to work for an independent South Arabia. It is a Constitution which makes provision for the establishment of a broad-based caretaker Government to be established.
Discussions are now taking place with a view to the establishment of such a Government, but the House will understand that this is a confidential process and that I cannot go into the details of these discussions at present. I can, however, inform the House that Mr. Makawee, one of the F.L.O.S.Y. leaders, has this week arrived in New York to meet members of the United Nations Mission. I very much welcome this development and my noble Friend, Lord Caradon, who has been keeping in the closest touch with the United Nations Mission, is hoping to talk with Mr. Makawee as soon as possible.

Mr. Sandys: The right hon. Gentleman has several times today, and in previous speeches, referred to the formation of a caretaker Government. I know that the phrase "caretaker Government" appears in United Nations resolutions, but has it any significance now that it has been decided to initiate this


new Constitution; to back the Federal Government and enable it to broaden itself? Is there a suggestion that the Federal Government will be done away with and that a different Government, called a caretaker Government, will be set up?

Mr. Thomson: As the right hon. Gentleman said, the phrase comes from United Nations resolutions, which have been accepted by the Federal Government. Indeed, the Federal Government are co-operating in these efforts to broaden their base and to establish a caretaker Government. The phrase is itself a reflection on the fact that there cannot be free elections in Aden and South Arabia for some time yet. There is, therefore, bound to be a caretaker in the sense of waiting until there can be full democratic elections in the territory.

Mr. Sandys: Does this phrase mean that the Federal Government will go on as they now are, with such broadening as can be brought about—a process which everybody supports—but that there is no question of doing away with this Government and setting up a different Government for an interim period?

Mr. Thomson: The right hon. Gentle man must put his own gloss on the words I have used. We are in the middle of delicate and important discussions, and I would rather not go into any great detail on this topic.

Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: I agree that the arrival of this representative of F.L.O.S.Y. in New York is a major development. Can my right hon. Friend say whether Her Majesty's Government have considered giving facilities for Lord Shackleton and Sir Humphrey Trevelyan to go to New York to see all these people and F.L.O.S.Y. representatives?

Mr. Thomson: I think that my hon. Friend has misunderstood the matter. I sympathise with his motive; he wants direct discussions between Her Majesty's Government and representatives of F.L.O.S.Y. under the auspices of the United Nations Mission in New York. We are fully in agreement with this desire. My noble Friend, Lord Caradon, is a Minister of Her Majesty's Government and he is hoping to meet Mr. Makawee

—and, therefore, this will constitute direct discussions between Her Majesty's Government and F.L.O.S.Y. under the auspices of the United Nations. I do not know what more my hon. Friend wants in this respect.
I have apologised to the House for having spoken at such length. I conclude by saying that the recent Arab-Israel fighting does not in any way affect the principles and policies of the plans which we have put forward for independence for South Arabia on 9th January of next year. Indeed, it seems that, in the particular context of South Arabia, the policies which we have put forward—the kind of principles which the Foreign Secretary put forward in March of this year to the House of our approach to Middle Eastern problems—have had their validity emphasised.
They apply in large measure not only to the problems of South Arabia, but to Britain's relations with the countries of the Middle East as a whole. I will restate them. We, for our part, seek no political advantage for ourselves in any of the countries in the Middle East. We desire only that the people there should be able to live their own lives in peace without the threat of attack by their neighbour. In all our relations with Middle East countries, that is the direction in which we are working and, with the United Nations, we shall seek to stand by and fulfil these principles.

5.6 p.m.

Mr. J. Grimond: I agree with a great deal of what has been said by both Front Bench speakers. I agree with many of the remarks of the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) and with the Minister of State when he told us that our main interests in the area under discussion are centred on the Canal and on Aden.
If I appear to take a rather more pessimistic view than was expressed in those two speeches, it is not because do not equally share their hopes for this area but because I believe that in the past we in this country have too often blinded ourselves to the facts of the Middle East and have tended to comfort ourselves by turning our backs on the realities of the situation.
I hope that the Foreign Secretary will tell us more about Britain's policy on


the supply of arms. It is disturbing to learn that within a few weeks of the end of the war, Russia is apparently pouring arms into the area. While this emphasises the difficult position of other countries, we should be told the policy of Her Majesty's Government in this matter. I believe that we still employ an arms salesman. What instructions has he been given about the supply of British arms to the countries of the Middle East?
In my view, we have very little power and very little part to play directly in the area. I make an exception of Aden. Otherwise the sooner we shed the remaining vestiges of our old imperial responsibilities in this area the better—and then we must cease to delude ourselves about the sort of rôle that we can play. As for Aden, we must not leave a Congo situation behind; and I join in the congratulations which have been paid to our troops who have been fulfilling a most difficult rôle. It is almost impossible to keep order in a situation in which it is known that one will be leaving. Our troops deserve our highest thanks for what they have done.
I hope that our success—and it certainly has been a success—will not arouse again the belief that we have some undefined peace-keeping rôle to play in the Gulf. In both Front Bench speeches I thought I heard echoes of this belief. I do not believe that our success in Aden has any bearing on our future rôle in the Gulf. We should buy our oil from the Gulf. I do not consider that a military presence helps us to get the oil. Indeed, it decreases the likelihood of peace in the whole area.
Unpleasant though it may be, we should also realise that we are widely suspect in the Middle East. In many ways, the suspicion is wholly unjustified and it does no harm for all the parties in the House firmly to rebuff the lies which were told about Great Britain by the Arab countries during the recent conflict. There is sometimes a disposition to say that one should not say anything rude about the Arab countries. This has not inhibited them from saying some very rude things about us. Whatever we might have said about them, they could not have taken more violent action against us, short of declaring war. All parties in the House will,

therefore, I hope, agree with the Government that the accusation that we took part in the war is monstrous. Considering that we have supplied large amounts of aid to the Arab countries, it is not for them to accuse us for being responsible for the troubles in the Middle East.
Having said that, I must also say that I find a disposition in this country—and this, too, should be rebutted—to infer that somehow recent events justify the action we took in 1956 over the Suez Canal. If that feeling exists, it is most dangerous. In fairness to the Arab countries, we must say that that is an instance in recent British history which could give them some right to view us with suspicion in the Middle East, and that it is a tragic event that has created a canker, not only in other people's view of Great Britain but in the British people's confidence in the protestations and policies of their own Government.
Having said that, again, it is perfectly true to say that America has equally been bitterly attacked by the Arab countries as has Britain, and America certainly did not support us in the Suez adventure. Our unfortunate situation is that we are, on the one hand, tarred with the Suez brush and, on the other hand, widely regarded through the world—and, again, I say this simply as a fact to be taken into account—as the satellite of America. Indeed, we are regarded as being more of a satellite of America than Rumania is of Russia. Therefore, in a sense, we are having the worst of both worlds.
I believe, therefore, that before we begin to advise other people, far less pretend to take any unilateral action in the Middle East, we must do a lot of rethinking of our own foreign policy. I do not share the view expressed by the Minister of State that once this is over everything can go on as before. We have to give a lot of consideration to whether we want to be regarded as America's close ally, if not satellite, or move more into a Gaullist situation.
To digress, this is extremely important in view of the reported remarks in the Foreign Secretary's excellent speech, if I may say so, about Europe. Although the Prime Minister seemed to deny that it meant to do so, this speech has raised in many people's minds the question of


European foreign policy. But it is nonsense to talk about European foreign policy when there is this very wide gap between our foreign policy and that of France. If we are to talk about a European foreign policy or defence policy we must clear our minds as to what sort of policy it will be, and whether there is any sort of common ground between us and France.
I would also be extremely chary about giving advice to the Israelis. In some ways, indeed, I think that the Israelis could give some advice to us, because they got us off an awkward hook in the Middle East. I certainly share the wish that they will act with restraint, and if anything I may say seems to indicate the opposite I hope that the misunderstanding will not last. We must, however, face the facts of life as lived in the modern world. Do not let us pretend that if the Israelis act with restraint, retire behind their frontiers and carry on as before, it will necessarily do them any great good. One must not pretend that if the Israelis are attacked again by the Arabs the western countries will rush to their aid. I do not think that they will.
We have had this situation in Europe. Russia did not retire behind her frontiers after the war. On the contrary, she carried out a very big programme of annexation all over Europe. There may have been a reason for the annexation but whether that is so or not, no one now thinks any worse of Russia for it, and it does not prevent Mr. Kosygin from being very well received. I do not ask for a reversal of policy, but the fact is that Russia has not been widely blamed for that annexation.

Sir Barnett Janner: I have been listening rather carefully to what the right hon. Gentleman said. What exactly did he mean by saying that he hopes that the Israelis will not act exactly as before? What has Israel done before that the civilised world could possibly take objection to?

Mr. Grimond: The hon. Gentleman misunderstands me. I say that if Israel retires behind her frontiers that is very desirable, but we should not put ourselves in the position of having inferred that in future she will get unconditional support

from the Western world because she has behaved well. I am afraid that here virtue must be its own reward.

Sir Harmar Nicholls: Is the right hon. Gentleman saying that he would like the Israelis to retire, if they can, behind their former frontiers, but that if they do not, for the reasons he has given, he does not blame them?

Mr. Grimond: I am saying that. I say that unless the Israelis get much more definite guarantees than they so far appear at all likely to get, I believe that they can hardly be blamed for taking some guarantees themselves.
I pass on to the delicate question of refugees—

Mr. Frank Hooley: If the Arab States were at any time to seize Israeli territory, would the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to propagate the same argument?

Mr. Grimond: The Arabs may think that it was their territory at one time, and the Latvians may think that Latvia was their territory, but I do not think that we can say to the Israelis that they must go back indefinitely in time unless we are prepared to give a very much firmer guarantee than we have so far been prepared to give.
The refugess are the tragic feature of this situation, but before dealing with them let me say that there have been reports of gross ill-treatment of Jews in Arab countries, and that, as we are talking about the refugees, it would be fair to raise this matter at the United Nations. There are also reports of barbaric events in the Yemen, and I believe, too, that if we are engaged, as we say, in a humanitarian programme in the Middle East, we should make inquiries about what is happening in the Yemen.
It must be said that there is no lack of money or space in the Arab world to resettle the refugees if the Arabs regard themselves as a united people. There is plenty of money from the oil royalties to settle the refugees. I do not altogether approve of past British policies, but Britain did not encourage extreme Zionism. Perhaps she should have done more to stop it, but she cannot be blamed for the situation. Therefore,


while I hope that the Government will give a reasonable contribution, I agree that our record over the refugees is very good and that it is time the Russians and the Arabs contributed some funds.
Further, if the Arab people wanted to resettle the refugees there was nothing to prevent them from resettling them in the Jordan Valley, if they had wanted to, or in many other parts of the Arab world. Therefore, the first obligation lies upon the Arabs.
But we must recognise that what the refugees want is to return to their homes in Palestine, and, again, we ignore facts if we think that it is good enough to say to them, "Go and settle somewhere else, and we will give you money." The refugees want to return to their homes, from which they were evicted. I speak as one who was an anti-Zionist when the State of Israel was set up. I now think that it is one of the most remarkable countries in the world, and that we cannot possibly talk of its extinction. But, at that time, I thought it wholly wrong for some European nations, which were the persecutors of the Jews, to salve their conscience by acquiesing in the expulsion of the Arabs, who were not guilty of persecution of the Jews, from their homes.
It is their homes that the Arab refugees want. I remember being told that the Arabs in North Africa still keep the keys of their former houses in Spain because they want to go back there, and I am afraid that the Palestinian refugees will for a very long time want to go back. We must not delude ourselves: the provision of money or resettlement in other parts of the world will not settle the problem. By all means let us contribute but if resettlement outside Israel is the solution, the Arabs could well have done it themselves.

Mr. Frank Tomney: May I disabuse the right hon. Gentleman? Events have demonstrated that whenever money is called for from the rich oil kings of Arabia Arab unity falls apart completely. The only exception so far was the £100 million advanced by Kuwait to Iraq, and she did it only because she was afraid of Iraq grabbing the oil wells. The money is never put down.

Mr. Will Griffiths: I was interested in what the right

hon. Gentleman was saying about settling refugees. Does he believe that Israel could take any refugees back within her existing frontiers? May I remind him that Israel has been seeking to get 3 million Jews from Russia to settle in Israel?

Mr. Grimond: I agree with the hon. Member for Manchester, Exchange (Mr. Will Griffiths). I should be pleased if Israel would take refugees, but there are a great many refugees and they have a loyalty to other countries. A large disaffected minority might cause immense difficulty. In Israel there is extremely little space in which to settle. If anyone in this House had been a member of a kibbutz, say near the old Lake Genesevat, or near the Gaza Strip, or in the narrows of Israel where it is only 15 miles wide, faced with a holy war constantly preached for the total destruction of his State. I think that he would feel very much inclined to try to achieve more defensible boundaries than there are at present. The Arabs, after all, have not wanted simply to contain Israel, but to destroy it.
Unless the Western world is prepared to do much more for Israel than seems likely, we should be chary about blaming the Israelis for looking to their own efforts for their own salvation. In this difficult situation, what can be done? First, I believe that a solution lies in direct reconciliation between the Arabs and the Israelis. Israel must be a Middle Eastern country. So long as she appears as an outpost of Europe so long will she be under suspicion. Secondly, I am not wholly pessimistic about the return of the matter to the Security Council. I agree with the Minister of State. I do not think the United Nations in the last week or so has come out of these events as badly as many appear to think. It may be that the United Nations will be able to give some assistance to a rational settlement, but do not let us blind ourselves to the position of Russia—nor to the inherent difficulties. The United Nations can only help.
Russia has always been opposed to international settlements by the United Nations. She has never paid a penny towards any international force. I find it very unlikely that she would change her policy now. I fear that what obviously would be the best solution may be baulked by Russia. Not only should the frontiers between Israel and the Arab States be guaranteed, but there should be a physical


United Nations presence on a strip of land over which the United Nations has control. I do not believe that so long as they are guests, so to speak, in other people's countries they will ever have the authority to stop infiltration and possible further hostilities. U Thant has been unfairly blamed for withdrawing from the Sinai Peninsula. He was bound to withdraw unless he were to break all his obligations. This time the United Nations must control the territory in which it operates. But will Russia allow this? I should very much like to see some international agreement reached about the Canal.
Here again, it may be that in time it will become possible but it will take time. I understand that in a few weeks we are to have a new White Paper on Defence from the Government. I hope that at the same time we shall have a new statement of foreign policy because I do not believe that defence can be divorced from foreign policy. We must quite clearly accept that the basis of our independent and unilateral responsibility in the Middle East is finished and that we have a very limited rôle to play. We should concentrate our efforts on getting order in Aden until we can hand over to another Government which is capable itself of keeping order and achieving some international guarantee over the Suez Canal.

5.25 p.m.

Mr. F. J. Bellenger: I find myself so much in agreement with a large part of what the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) said that it will certainly shorten my speech. Although I shall try to be as diplomatic as my right hon. Friend the Minister of State was, I think the House must recognise the facts of the situation.
Israel was set up as a State as a result of the Balfour Declaration. A large number of Arabian countries were liberated, if I may use that word, as a result of Britain in that area, largely destroying the Turkish Empire. Then we have gone on with very little help from the Arab States and for 19 years they have made their own policy in the Middle East come what may. The result is that today Britain is penalised in her oil supplies directly by the Arab States, but behind them all by Russia.
I wonder whether the United Nations will go on, or go the same way as did

the League of Nations. I have listened in this House and elsewhere to so many speeches which placed reliance on the old League of Nations, but where did we end? I am coming to the conclusion that perhaps certain alliances might be better than the United Nations. The Foreign Secretary tells me that the problem will be solved in the Security Council and not by face-to-face negotiations between Israel and the Arab States. I wonder. With the veto there, with Russia following a policy which essentially is her own and not international, I wonder. There are two sides to every bargain. There has to be one who is prepared to pay the price and one who is prepared to accept the price when it is settled.
Is there really any possibility of the Security Council or the General Assembly coming to some resolution which will satisfy Russia? I doubt it. If not, I admit it is a pessimistic view and does not coincide with the point of view of the right hon. Gentleman, we shall be in a very difficult position. That is what leads me to think that perhaps the old alliance system under present circumstances may be better than the United Nations. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] I Know that some of my hon. Friend, and certainly my right hon. Friends, will disagree, but all I am doing is recognising the facts, as the right hon. Gentleman has asked us to do.
The next point I endorse thoroughly is on the question which was just floated before us, trailed if hon. Members like, about the supply of arms. If a litigant goes into court he has to go with clean hands. In this situation, has Britain clean hands? We know that Russia has not. According to reports, she is rearming the Arab nations with modern Russian weapons. Are we to do the same with Jordan, because we were the main supplier of Jordan? I say to the Government Front Bench that this is a matter of principle which they have to decide.
The Foreign Secretary should answer the point put to him by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, which I endorse, and tell us what the Government's policy is over the supply of arms to the Middle East. If we go on in the way in which Russia means to do,


as sure as fate there will be a fourth occasion in which the pre-emptive strike will come, and from a different quarter—the Arabs. The Israelis have shown that a pre-emptive strike is the answer, and I do not blame them. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."] If I were constantly having outside my front door burglars, murderers and assassins saying what they would do to my wife and children, I would react very quickly. That is what the Israelis have been doing, and in my opinion they were quite right to do it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shame." She has proved herself to be a nation.
When we look at the military side of this short war, we see that one of the reasons why the Israelis defeated the Arab nations was that the system of defence which the Arab nations had was a static defence behind prepared positions, the Russian system. The Israelis would not conform to that. They went straight through, and good luck to them that they did.
Therefore, I want to put this point to the House. I understand the difficulties of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. Of course, we cannot clear the Suez Canal by ourselves. Russia will see that that is blocked for as long as she wants it to remain blocked. What are we going to do? We may be able to get our petrol and oil somewhere and pay a higher price for it. If so, let us admit it; let us get on with it and pay the higher price. At the present moment it seems to me that we are playing a game where we have only got low-powered cards. We have got no court cards in our hands at the moment. That is the reason why Britain is referred to by a gentleman in a far off country that we know little about as a "toothless old bulldog". Maybe we are. All I am asking from Her Majesty's Government is a policy that we can support.
I am not at all sure that the policy adumbrated by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State today is the right policy. As I said when I began, I agree with most of what the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland said, so that there is no need for me to repeat what he said. But on the arms question I feel that a point of vital principle has been raised. Some of my hon. Friends may say, "Russia is going to supply the Arab nations. What about the Israelis?

Why should not we supply them?" Of course, we can be like that noble statesman in France who proclaims his lofty neutrality, at the same time providing the Mystères and Mirages in order to overwhelm the Egyptians and others. Very well, let our programme be "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition", but let us realise that in saying that, we are hypocritical as a nation.
I believe there are many people in this country who do not want Britain to engage in that arms traffic. It is profitable, but it has long been proclaimed by my own party that we should get out of that traffic. We do not seem to be doing it at the present time, and I have a suspicion that one of the things which were discussed between King Hussein and the Prime Minister was the possibility of this country providing arms.
I protest at the unreality of the situation. Israel has certain positions which she has won by the force of arms. We can do as I have just suggested or, like the Russians, we can say "Back to your own frontiers before we discuss what happens in the future." Israel would be unwise to accept that situation, and I was glad to hear from my right hon. Friend that Her Majesty's Government could not support a resolution like that. Israel is now in a position where she has won considerable territory, some of it of great strategic value. But she is not out of the wood yet. She is far too near some of those Arab States and centres where she can be attacked. Look at the situation in the Tiran Strait, or the Gulf of Aqaba, whatever one likes to call it. She has got the entrance to it, but if she gives up Sinai what is her guarantee for the future? I agree with the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire that it would be very nice if we could get the United Nations—which includes Russia and France—to give a substantial guarantee. Then the Israelis might be prepared to bargain. But I would certainly not ask them to give up some of those important points that they have got unless there is a cast-iron guarantee. The only cast-iron international guarantee that can be given is to place forces there under the aegis of the United Nations, and not even subject to the Secretary-General.
There was obviously a threat of war when the peace-keeping force left Egypt. Israel accepted that situation and she


went to war. I hope she will be very careful in any negotiations not to give up certain positions that she won by her valour and courage. I think that the Arab States are so involved in hatred, as Hitler was, that they really want to drive the Jews into the sea. Hitler said the same thing and it involved us in a war. If that involved us in a war for moral reasons then, Britain has got to proclaim to the world that she will play her part in providing guarantees for Israel's security, and I hope those guarantees will be substantial.

5.36 p.m.

Mr. Sandys: This is a wide-ranging debate and, like other hon. Members, I propose to touch lightly on various subjects.
First, I welcome the Minister's assurance that the Government are trying to improve our relations with the Arab countries. In this process I believe it is important to distinguish between those Arab countries which are basically friendly to Britain and those which are basically hostile to us and to our interests.
Like the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond), I do not propose to give any advice to Israel. Having criticised the Foreign Secretary for lecturing Israel about the terms of the future peace settlement, I shall be careful not to do the same myself. All I wish to say is that I am sure that Israel's one and only objective will be to achieve security. But it is surely unrealistic to think that the Israelis are likely to give up their bargaining position until they see how they are to get security. Israel and her Arab neighbours will have to find a way of living in peace together. Like the right hon. Member for Basset-law (Mr. Bellenger), I think that it is better in the first place that they should try to sort things out among themselves. If after a while they are seen to be getting nowhere, then perhaps other countries may be able to help.
Meanwhile, I am sure we can all agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) that the resettlement of the Arab refugees must be an essential element in any solution. I hope, therefore, that the Government will give high priority to a study of the possibility of

co-operating in large-scale irrigation schemes using the latest techniques for desalination.
I join with the Minister in congratulating our forces on the successful reoccupation of the Crater area in Aden. This is not primarily a debate about South Arabia, but there are one or two specific questions which I wish to put to the Government.
First, what is the present legal position of the two terrorist organisations? Did the lifting of the ban carry with it a free pardon for all crimes committed before the ban was lifted? And what about crimes committed since the ban was lifted? Have they been given an indefinite licence to murder? Within days of the lifting of the ban, the N.L.F. and F.L.O.S.Y. were engaged in an armed rebellion in which a number of Britons and Arabs were killed. May we be assured that every effort will be made to arrest and bring to trial the leaders of those organisations and others concerned in these crimes? I understand that, instead, the Foreign Secretary is to have a meeting with the leader of F.L.O.S.Y. Is that not what we were told earlier?

Mr. George Thomson: My noble Friend the Minister of State will be seeing him in New York.

Mr. Sandys: Mr. Smith, of course, is untouchable, but these people who commit murder every day are shown every courtesy and civility. The Government apparently think it is perfectly proper and decent to meet them.

Mr. Paget: Have they not in the past few days demonstrated another difference between themselves and Mr. Smith? Mr. Smith can rule. In the Crater district F.L.O.S.Y. demonstrated that it could not rule.

Mr. Sandys: I shall not pursue that point. But I should like to be assured that no one who either instigated or committed these acts of murder will be invited to join the South Arabian Government or, as it now seems to be called, the caretaker Government. May we be assured of that? It makes a nonsense of the Government's intention to re-establish law and order if after there has been a bloody rebellion they immediately ask the people who were


responsible for it to take over the Government of the country. [An HON. MEMBER: "It has happened before."] I abhor these double standards. If it is a white man he can do no right.
Everyone, including the South Arabian Ministers themselves, want to see the Federal Government strengthened and broadened. The first step is to bring in the new Constitution as quickly as possible. A further effort should then be made to persuade the States of the Hadhramaut in the East Aden Protectorate to join the Federation. But I am afraid that until law and order is restored they may be reluctant to do so. I suggest, also, that the Federal Ministers should be urged to consider including in the Government a prominent officer of the South Arabian army. Apart from the value of his military experience, the presence in the Government of a senior army officer should help to assure the loyalty of the armed forces and the police, which is so vital to the stability of the new State of South Arabia.
I come now to the question of the future of Perim. What action are the Government taking, following upon our debate the other night, to secure the internationalisation of this island? I understand that the Federal Government have asked that Perim should be transferred to the Federation on independence. It has never been part of the Federation and it is not part of Aden Colony. They have, therefore, no claim to it. Her Majesty's Government should not allow any such claim to deter them from pursuing the proposal to internationalise Perim, which could be of such immense importance for the freedom of shipping through the Red Sea in future years.
Like the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, I wish to say a word about the use of poison gas in the Yemen. From the report of the International Red Cross, it is now clear beyond all doubt that poison gas has been dropped on the villages of the tribes which oppose the Egyptian occupation and that quite a large number of people have suffered an agonising death. It is the height of hypocrisy for Nasser to complain, without any supporting evidence, that Israel used napalm in the recent war, while he himself continues to attack his fellow Arabs with poison gas. The other day the Foreign Secretary promised that

he would raise this matter at the United Nations. Did he do so during his recent visit to New York? I hope that he will tell us about this when he winds up.

Sir B. Janner: The right hon. Gentleman has said that Nasser has complained of the Israelis having used napalm. Is he aware that there is no evidence whatever of that having been done?

Mr. Sandys: That is precisely what I said.
I turn now to the wider aspects of the Middle East problem. The recent war has drawn attention to some of the stark realities which many have been trying to sweep under the carpet for some time. The first is that Russia is making a determined bid to become the dominant Power in the Middle East, both economically and militarily. If this is allowed to happen, it would not only seriously threaten oil supplies, but would place a formidable barrier across the communications between Europe and Asia. It is time that we and other interested countries began seriously to consider what action we can take to prevent this dangerous development.
There is no doubt that the Russians are pouring arms into Egypt. They are doing this partly to rebuild the shattered prestige of their protégé, Nasser, and partly to restore Soviet influence in the Arab world. The Egyptians will, I am sure, be in no hurry to engage in another war with Israel. On the other hand, this massive build-up of Egyptian armaments is bound to lead to an intensive effort by Israel to increase her military strength.
Neither should we take it for granted that the arms race in the Middle East will indefinitely be confined to conventional weapons. Israel is technically capable of making nuclear armaments. Unless some worldwide agreement on non-proliferation can be reached tairly soon, it will be unwise to assume that Israel will for much long refrain from so doing. If India, which now feels increasingly menaced by the Chinese hydrogen bomb, decides to do the same, any prospect there may be of preventing the spread of nuclear weapons will disappear.
The problem is to provide security for countries which agree to remain nonnuclear—security not only against nuclear attack, but also against attack by


stronger neighbours with conventional arms. It is clear that these countries cannot look to the United Nations to provide this security either now or for many years to come. In my view, there are only three possible courses. The first is for the two super-Powers, Russia and America, to give a joint guarantee. The second is for one or other of them to give a separate guarantee. The third is to do nothing and allow more and more countries to acquire nuclear weapons, which means accepting the inevitability of a nuclear war sooner or later.
In view of the urgent need for some international system of security and the total failure of the United Nations to provide it, we must recognise that, until some effective world authority is created, the only hope of preserving peace is for the great Powers to agree to police the world together. I am not suggesting that that is necessarily an attractive proposition, but I am trying to think in terms of what might conceivably be possible. Although we are still a long way from it, I cannot see any other method of avoiding a world conflict within the next 20 years.
One of the outstanding features of the recent crisis was that, while General de Gaulle talked rather grandly of a conference of the four great Powers, it was painfully obvious that there are only two. Although the crisis broke out on Europe's very doorstep, the European nations exercised little or no influence upon the course of events. It is quite absurd that Europe, with her large and highly-educated population, her immense industrial and technical resources and her wide experience, should have no effective say in the councils of the world. But, whether we like it or not, that is in fact the position today; and the only way to change it is to create a truly united Europe which will not only pool its economic resources but will be capable of speaking with one voice on the great political issues which shape the course of history.
As I have tried to show, the crisis in the Middle East has thrown into relief a number of varied problems. I do not pretend to know the answers, but I have ventured to express a few thoughts upon them.

5.52 p.m.

Sir Barnett Janner: I should like first to express my gratitude, for the efforts which were and are being made by the authorities and our troops in Aden, who are carrying out their duties in an exemplary manner. There is not the slightest doubt that they have acted courageously and under extremely difficult circumstances. I know Aden; I have been there.
I do not understand how we can possibly speak the double language we are speaking at times on the issue between the Arab States and Israel. Why are we not frank about the position? In view of the undeniable facts, facts which can be proved right up to the hilt, why do we not admit that what Israel said she intended to do she has indeed attempted to do and succeeded in doing throughout the 19 years of her existence? Is there any hon. Member who can deny that? Is there anyone in the House who can deny that Israel has tried to do what she said in her Proclamation of Independence when she was founded? That Proclamation said:
The State of Israel will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the principles of liberty, justice and peace as conceived by the Prophets of Israel; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of religion, race or sex; will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience. education and culture.
Who in the House or anywhere else in the world can deny that Israel said what she intended to do in that Proclamation and has carried into effect right from the commencement the full objects for which she was established?
I should like to disillusion some of my hon. Friends and hon Members opposite. The Zionist movement did not start with the German troubles at all. Jews had gone out to Palestine and reclaimed the soil long before that. Their only enemy was the ravages of nature, and against most formidable obstacles they created settlements there under the most severe difficulties which were an outstanding example to the world as a whole. Anyone who has been there knows that is true.
In a speech about 10 years ago, I said:
Britain and Israel have much in common. Both nations are part of the family of democracies; tyranny or intolerance, whether political or social, are alien to both. It has been rightly said, I think, that a people which first. some thousands of years ago, defied idolatory even against the formidable forces of Assyria and Rome can never yield to tyranny in any form. Israel's way of life is recognisably based upon our own in many respects. Its Parliament, the Knesset, is elected by ballot—its Government is not changed by coup d'état or assassination but by the free desire of the people. Both countries have steadfastly refused to give in against most formidable odds.
I repeat today what I said previously, that the battle of Israel in most respects resembled the Battle of Britain. The Israelis were alone. We did not help them. We are falling over backwards to explain to the rest of the world that we did not go anywhere near them, that we did not want to have anything to do with the matter but let them fight their own battle.
That is true, but not having gone near them in their time of trial and trouble we have no right now to warn them about what they are to do in the future. I ask my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary not to warn Israel or ask her to accept advice on matters which she and the Arabs alone can really decide. If the Arab peoples continue to say that they are at war with Israel, they are the aggressors. Why are we hypocritical about the position? Do we not know that all along Nasser has been declaring war against Israel and has said that Egypt was in a state of war with her? There can be no question of who was the aggressor or non-aggressor. He was only waiting time to collect sufficient forces to encircle Israel, as he did, with the help of other Arab States.
What impertinence of a man of that design to allege that anyone else was the aggressor when he went there deliberately to attack and had already encircled Israel! What impertinence to suggest that Israel is an aggressor! Hitler did the same thing. I remember, and some other hon. Members remember, that he used to say that the Jewish people in Germany were attacking him—the, unhappily, unarmed, Jewish people at that time.
Fortunately, on this occasion Nasser found a courageous people ready, a people of outstanding ability prepared to keep

the peace and to assist the world, including the Arab world, as they have declared time after time. I hope that my right hon. Friends will remember this. Israel continually asked the Arab world for peace and asked them to come together with them and work together. The Israelis were prepared to help the Jordanians to do exactly the same for the Jordanian territory as they have for Israel. That is the situation.
This is undeniable. I defy anybody in the House to suggest that it is not. I have watched this matter very carefully for very many years. Every hon. Member who has gone from the House to Israel and every journalist and other person who has gone there has come back with precisely this same story. What the United Nations is set up for and what the League of Nations was set up for has been achieved in the State of Israel which was established. Israel has done precisely what all of us would like to have all other peace-loving nations of the world do.
The Israelis did not sit there idly, indifferent to the 500,000 Jewish refugees who came from Arab countries. Do not let us misunderstand what happened. There is a lot of talk about refugees from Israel. What the cause of it was I am not prepared to argue about now. But there were 500,000 or more Jewish refugees to Israel from Arab countries. Many of such Jews went to Israel without a penny piece, deprived of their properties, like the vast number of them from Iraq. I saw them myself. I was in Aden in 1947 and I saw the Jews there then during riots against them. The Aden Jews have all gone, a large number of them to Israel.
There were 8,000 Yemenite Jews in Camp Hassid near Aden in 1947, and they were fleeing from the Yemen after 3,000 years—not a century but 3,000 years—a Jewish community having been there from the time of Ezra. I saw them in this camp on their way to the Holy Land, believing that they would be carried to Israel on the wings of an eagle, and eventually believing, because they were flown to Israel, that the prophecy had been fulfilled.
So we are not dealing with an uncivilised people. We are dealing with a highly civilised, decent set of men, women and children, all of whom when it came to


looking after their refugees were prepared to accept them with loving kindness into their homeland, prepared to settle them on the land and prepared to give them every facility for becoming self-respecting citizens and forgetting the past. Why do not the Arab countries do that instead of piling up armaments against Isreal? Why do we not ask them to do that?
It is all very well for us now to tell Israel what to do, but what did we do when, in the City of Jerusalem, latrines were put next to the Temple wall, one of the most sacred places in the world for the Jews of the world? What did we say? Apparently we could not do anything about that. What did we do about the road running through the Jewish cemetery, etc.? We took no notice of all these things. We rarely said anything and we never did anything. We never tried to insist on the United Nations doing something.
The Israelis honour every religion. From the creation of their State they had a Minister of Religion. I am glad to see that my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) is here, because I shall have something to say about What he said time ago. The Jews honour every religion and give full facilities for everybody to worship according to their will. Yet for 19 years, with practically not a murmur from anybody, no Jew could go to the holy places of Jerusalem to which their eyes had been turned for 2,000 years.
Are we hypocrites or are we not? I am talking about the world in general. I am not talking about our own people here. Where is the decency of the world? How do we expect to have a world in which men and women will live in peace if we are not prepared to take sides on the question of morals? Why do our leaders not go out and say these things, which are true? Why do we not say to the Arabs, "This is what happened. You can trust yourselves in Jerusalem". I do not know whether—

Mr. Christopher Mayhew: It is nevertheless the case, is it not, that the arbitrary annexation of Jerusalem by Israel has been condemned by 99 members of the United Nations without a single vote against?

Sir B. Janner: There has been no aggression in Jersualem at all. If the members of the United Nations have done that, what right have those nations, after having sat silently and quietly while these desecrations took place, to turn to Israel and say that we have allowed people from Old Jerusalem, for example, to shoot in to the King David Hotel and the small territory which is occupied in Jerusalem? Everybody knows very well that they can trust the Israelis to do the right thing for all religions and creeds in Jerusalem.
Everybody knows very well that the holy places will be protected. Every hon. Member knows very well that if the proposition were put to the Israelis in Jerusalem that the holy places should be supervised there would be no difficulty at all. What are some of us worried about? Do we want to drive people out so that again—it is no good; I am speaking emotionally, but this is an emotion which, I assure the House emanates from a real belief in what I am talking about.
What are we going to do about it? Are we to say to the Israelis "You will have U Thant there."? The right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) spoke about a United Nations police force. We are very far from that. Have the Israelis in that city to face the fear that they may be fired upon at any time? Do not let it be forgotten that even Jordan did not hold its hand in any way. The Israelis did; they lost lives to protect the holy places by not opening up their heavy artillery on them. But the Jordanians did not do so—

Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman's vigorous statement of Israel's case, but he referred to the police force. Does he not think, on reflection, that it is a great mistake for Israel not to allow a United Nations peacekeeping force inside Israel's frontiers? Will he not use his influence to try to persuade Israel to allow it to happen now?

Sir B. Janner: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern. But U Thant walked out, did he not? If there had been half a dozen, 20 or 100 members of a United Nations force in Jerusalem, what would they have done? They could only have impeded the Israelis in protecting themselves. I put a simple question to the hon. Gentleman. What does he suggest would have happened assuming that


Israel had waited after the aggression in the Tiran Straits and the massing of vast forces against her—it was definitely an act of war—while the United Nations, we and all the other peoples of the world were considering what to do with Israel? The hon. Gentleman is a military man. He knows very well the kind of armour that there was around Israel at that time and that it might have smashed Israel perhaps after a delay of a month or two months.
I think that Israel was perfectly justified in saying, "We have nothing to fear from anyone seeing what we are doing. But we have to fear if people are to come in and prevent us from defending ourselves when we are attacked." That is the position, and I think that the House and everybody else ought to know that.
I have just one or two more points to make. This is a subject with which I have been very concerned, and I do not occupy the attention of the House very often.
I should like us to turn to the masses of the Arabs and tell them the true facts —because they are true. I am sure that no one here would deny what I have been saying. Everybody realises that what was happening was blackmail. If a man complains about being blackmailed to his lawyer he tells the victim to go and call the bluff. The lawyer sends a letter to the blackmailer saying, "If you carry on with this we will take certain steps."
Why are we being blackmailed on the question of oil? Cannot we find some other way to deal with that position? This is expediency we are talking about, not morals. We are not talking at present on the basis of who is right or wrong. We know very well that Israel is right. I defy anyone to suggest differently.
We know that the outpourings of terrible threats by Arab leaders would have resulted in every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel being destroyed if the Arabs had succeeded. Do we think that the Arabs would have held their hand if they had got into Israeli cities? They would have bombed them and destroyed their people. Let my hon. Friend the Member for Clapham (Mrs. McKay) read the literature sent out by the Arabs. Let her read what was

monitored from Arab radios. It was scurrilous, venomous—Hitlerian.
"Israel must be destroyed—every man, woman and child." That was what the Arabs said before and when war broke out. They said that they would do this with Mongolian ferocity. Israel will not stand for this kind of threat again. She cannot be called upon to do so. It has had enough. The war of nerves played against Israel was shocking. No one came to her aid during the war. No one attempted effectively to dissuade the Arabs from that kind of action.
I would like to see steps taken to end all this. When Israel complained of more than 150 cases of mines and other destructive weapons being planted in a football field and other places nothing was done. Would we have stood for it here? Suppose some one from the Isle of Man, for example, came across and laid mines in our football fields? Would we have stood for that kind of thing day after day, watching some people being blown to pieces?

Sir H. Legge-Bourke: I would fire only one thing back at the hon. Gentleman. How would we like it in this country if, suddenly, a large section of our population was told. "You will move out and let some other people who have been unfortunate elsewhere move in"?

Sir B. Janner: Come, now— The Arab States were not Arab States before the, end of the First World War. Where is the good sense of making allegations at the present time? Syria was not Syria Saudi Arabia was not Saudi Arabia Turkish rule was everywhere. Jews as well as non-Jews fought to give the opportunity for Syria to become Syria and Saudi Arabia to become Saudi Arabia.
What is this nonsense about people having to move out? Mandated Palestine had a tiny corner which the Arab land-lords sitting in Damascus and Cairo would not allow to be used in the proper way. The feudal lords never tilled the soil there. But they extracted everything they could from the impoverished peasants. That is the history of Palestine, It is a disgraceful thing in this age, that we should not realize that, After the allies had won the war, Arab States got their freedom and Israeli people eventually got a little piece of land less than


the size of Wales. The Jewish settlers paid for every pennyworth of land at the time of the Mandate. I can prove these things, and the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legg-Bourke) knows it.
I hope that we shall get a peace settlement. The Israelis have no axe to grind against the Arabs. In Israel, Arabs and Jews have lived peacefully with each other. The Arabs have progressed and developed in Israel and many are much richer in possessions than the vast majority of Israelis. The Israelis are prepared to help the Arabs and to go to the conference table with them.
Let us see sense. Instead of fiddling about with excuses because of oil and the rest, try to find a decent and reasonable way out of this situation and get the Israelis and Arabs together to sink their differences and make a settlement so that the peace of the whole area may be established to the advantage of all.

6.15 p.m.

Sir Fitzroy Maclean: I was afraid that the debate might be spoiled by there being too great a measure of agreement on both sides of the House. I am beginning to see how wrong I was. The House has listened with great interest and with a certain measure of agreement to the speech of the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner). I want to address myself to the problem of what this country's attitude should be in the present situation. Because it seems to me that it offers us unexpectedly promising opportunities for a satisfactory solution. It also offers opportunities for us to do what we did in the 1940s—which was to get the worst of both worlds and to make enemies all round.
I do not think that there is any subject on which there is a bigger tangle of prejudices—racial, political and ideaological. And we have of late seen many interesting new combinations and permutations in this respect. But we must try and overcome those prejudices and view the situation in the light of the facts. Of course, that is what everyone says and it is easier said than done. Nevertheless, our aim must be to consider this problem in the light of the known facts and also with a certain number of definite aims in view.
The first of these is, clearly, the preservation of peace and world order. I do not think that anyone would disagree with that. To me, the second should be the furtherance of the aims and interests of the Western Alliance and the third—and I hope that I shall not be thought very old-fashioned in saying this—should be the furtherance of British national interests. And I believe that, basically, there need be no conflict whatever between these three aims.
I want to begin by making an immediately suspect remark, namely, that I believe myself to be reasonably free from prejudice on this whole subject. I like what I have seen both of the Arabs and of the Israelies. I also try to do something else. I have always felt that, as a general rule in foreign policy, unless one comes up against something quite exceptional, like Hitler, it is important to try, on the whole, not to let the ideological or political complexion of a country's régime predispose one either against it or in favour of it.
I am anything but a Socialist, but I would never let the Socialist or semi-Socialist character either of the Egyptian or the Israeli Government in any way influence me against them—any more than I allow what I regard as the misguided political views of hon. Members opposite to influence me against them personally or stop me from having friendly relations with them.
What we have to look at in the case of the Arabs and the Israelis are their actions and their attitudes, and also the actions and attitudes of the other Powers involved, whether large or small, because it is not only the Arabs and the Israelis who are involved in this dispute—far from it.
There has never been a war or a crisis without its origin and its cause being disputed and befogged by a haze of propaganda from the start, and that is what has happened this time. But one or two facts emerge clearly. First, that for the last 20 years Egypt and the Arab countries have strenuously denied Israel's right to exist and, secondly, they have again and again openly declared their intention of wiping out the State of Israel. President Nasser, as we now know, even had a special issue of postage stamps prepared two months ago in advance to


celebrate his forthcoming victory over Israel—a classical example of bad timing and misjudgment.
Secondly, no one can dispute that the State of Israel was brought into being by the United Nations Organisation and that, therefore, the more responsible members of the U.N.—among whom we can be included—are under a definite obligation to prevent its just being wiped out by President Nasser or anybody else. The same would apply to Egypt or any other country if it were the other way round.
Further, the events of the last 10 or 15 years have demonstrated clearly one or two things about President Nasser himself. First, he has little regard for international treaties or obligations. Secondly, he is guilty of what used to be called aggression, not only against Israel, but against the Yemen, where he has 70,000 troops whose military shortcomings he seeks to make up for by the lavish use of poison gas against the civilian population. Against the South Arabian Federation. Against Saudi Arabia and Libya. In fact, against every Arab country which has shown the slightest vestige of independence in its dealings with him.
Finally, I hope that I shall not be treading on the toes of hon. Members opposite who persist in regarding him as an enlightened Leftist or of some Conservatives who regard him as goodness know what, when I say that I do not regard Colonel Nasser as a very great friend of this country.
There are, it seems to me, one or two conclusions to be drawn from all this. If we attach any importance to the maintenance of world order and peace, then we have to do everything we can—our powers in this respect may be limited, but not as limited as some people think—to ensure that Israel's future existence as a State is adequately recognised and safeguarded. I understand that the Government are in entire agreement with that proposition.
A more difficult question is how this can be done. Here the Government's attitude is not clear. To insist on the Israelis' evacuating automatically everything that they have occupied and then asking them to content themselves with some sort of paper guarantee of the kind that they had

before all this happened would be totally unrealistic. It would be totally unrealistic even if it were feasible, and it is not feasible. I do not believe that even the Russians themselves could turn the Israelis out of the territories that they have occupied by force of arms, and I am quite sure the Arabs could not. That has been shown already.
In my view, the Israelis should be allowed by the Powers to keep what they need to protect them and their country against future attacks. That need not be all the territory that they have occupied, but there are certain areas—I do not propose to enumerate them—which would be of help in that respect and which they could well be left to occupy. The fact that they have occupied these particular territories thanks to the bravery and efficiency of their troops and against overwhelming odds should not, I would submit, be allowed to count against them.
I welcome, as other hon. Members have, the recently more realistic attitude of Jordan. If that country and its rulers had had a bigger say over the years in Middle Eastern affairs, we might well never have found ourselves in this situation. Everything possible should now be done to induce the Arab countries to recognise Israel's existence as a State by entering into direct peace negotiations and they should also be induced to face up to the necessity of making certain limited territorial concessions. The Arabs' best hope, if they only could realise it, of getting the Israelis to give up some of their territorial gains is by negotiation and by making peace with them and by reassuring them. If that could be done, they would not have the feeling of insecurity which may otherwise lead them to hold on to everything they have.
Another obvious subject which must be covered by any agreement is the refugee problem. I find myself in agreement—it is the only thing I did find myself in agreement with—with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). He was talking good sense when he said that, while we should make a contribution, so for that matter should the Arab countries. As long as the refugees are not provided for, they will be a constant source of irritation and an unsettling influence, to put it mildly, in the Middle East. There are, I am afraid, some people who, while


professing great sympathy for them, prefer to see them in that rôle than happily settled.
What are the prospects of some sort of agreement on these lines? Hitherto, President Nasser has had very powerful backing. He has been backed by the Russians, one of the super Powers, quite openly. However, I wonder whether the Russians are quite as keen on him now as they were and whether they do not perhaps begin to wonder whether they have not backed the wrong horse. After all, an ally that in one week goes and loses enough armour to equip a whole armoured division as well as several complete missile installations—a billion dollars' worth altogether—is not really much of a bargain as an ally.
That may well lead the Russians, who are very realistic people, to revise their view of President Nasser. I think that they are likely to go on exploiting his nuisance value as long as that lasts, and that is no doubt the explanation of the fresh deliveries of arms which have been made quite recently, although I wonder whether they are on quite the scale of the previous ones. But I doubt whether the Russians will be prepared to stick their necks out very far on his behalt after what has happened. Indeed, they might be quite glad of an opportunity to withdraw as gracefully as possible from this whole unrewarding imbroglio.
I believe that what both the Russians and the Americans are primarily concerned with is to reach agreement with each other. I think that is what interests both those great countries most of all and I believe that before very long I believe they may arrive at such an agreement. This, I am sure, from everybody's point of view is something to be welcomed. But, nevertheless, it would be a great pity if Great Britain were to choose this moment to give up any attempt whatever to influence the course of events in the Middle East and leave everything to be settled by the two super-Powers whose judgment, quite frankly, I do not always trust.
I believe myself that we still have a part to play and an influence to exert, and that this influence can be exerted partly by our presence in the Middle East—in so far as we still have a presence

there—and partly by our experience and our influence in the councils of the nations, which is much bigger than most people think. And here I should like to take issue with the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, who until recently led the Liberal Party. He said that it was time—I could not make out whether he was doing it, or thought that someone else should do it —to enunciate a new foreign policy. He seemed to say that this country should have no peacekeeping rôle and no responsibilities and accept any annexations which had happened as historical facts.
So far, his argument was perfectly logical but then he spoiled it by saying that he did not want to leave a Congo in Aden, or, as far as I can make out, anywhere else. But how does he propose to do that if this country is to have no responsibilities and no peacekeeping rôle? I am sure that he will say that it would be nice if this could be done within the framework of the United Nations and, of course, I would agree with that, but the framework of the United Nations occasionally does not work, and this has been an example.

Mr. Grimond: I find it refreshing for the hon. Gentleman to agree with me even about that. Of course, we have a direct responsibility for Aden and should, therefore, maintain a military presence in Aden until we can hand over to someone else who would discharge that responsibility. But that argument does not apply all over the Middle East and far less to the Far East. The sooner we give up the pretence that we have a general peacekeeping rôle to play over the whole area, the better.

Sir F. Maclean: I wonder what the right hon. Gentleman thinks would have happened in Aden if we had not happened to have responsibility there. I was very much struck by what a member of the American Administration said to me some time ago. He said, "There are some areas you British can pull out of without its mattering all that much, because we can take your place. But if you pull out of the Middle East and east of Suez, that will leave a dangerous vacuum which we could not hope to fill". The right hon. Gentleman called his attitude facing the facts of life; but I would call it trying to have it both ways,


which, if I may say so, is characteristic of the party which he used to lead with such distinction.
Because I believe that we still have a part to play in the Middle East, I am glad that the Government have had second thoughts about Aden. I know that there is some dispute about whether, in fact, they have had second thoughts, but that is the general impression we get and I am very glad of it and do not want to look a gift horse in the mouth, however belated the gift may be.
For my part, I would like to have second thoughts about the Yemen as well and what is happening there. I, personally, do not see why we should go out of our way to make things easy for President Nasser. In fact, I would like to see them made as difficult for him as possible with the object of teaching him once and for all a lesson—one might call it "no end of a lesson", to quote the title of a recent best seller: the lesson that aggression and tearing up treaties does not pay and that he had far better get on with the long overdue task of putting his own country in order and giving his unfortunate people a better standard of living instead of going round interfering in the affairs of other people.
Finally, one last point. In the Press and elsewhere there have been disquieting stories of our troops in Aden being hampered in their operations by lack of armour, owing to the rundown, and also prevented by orders, given on political grounds, from making full use of the weapons they have. I was very glad to hear the Minister of State deny this and that he was able to reassure us. I speak as the stepfather of a young soldier who is about to go to Aden and I am sure that I have not been alone in feeling very much disturbed by these reports. People will, I know, read the right hon. Gentleman's remarks with relief and I hope that he will do his best to see that there are no further rumours, or cause for rumours, of this kind.

Mr. Speaker: I remind the House that there are 40 hon. Members attempting to speak in the debate. If hon. Members will be reasonably brief they will help the debate and other hon. Members.

6.36 p.m.

Mr. Eric S. Heffer: As the House is no doubt aware, a number of my hon. Friends and I have

recently returned from a visit to Israel, when we also visited the occupied territories of Syria, Jordan and the Gaza Strip. We spoke to Cabinet Ministers, to leaders of various political parties in Israel, to Arab leaders within that country, to prisoners of war and to ordinary people in the occupied territories.
I shall not give the House a travellogue, and I shall certainly not pretend that we are experts on the Middle East or the immediate situation because of a visit of a few days. I shall certainly not suggest that we are here as the ambassadors of the Israeli Government. It has its own ambassadors, who seem to be very competent people and who undoubtedly will be able to argue their own case without my aid or that of my Parliamentary colleagues.
But the fact that we were able to visit the area at this time and to see the problems for ourselves means that at least we are able to come fresh from the area and to formulate some ideas about what may be done in this situation. I speak entirely for myself and not on behalf of my Parliamentary colleagues who accompanied me when I put forward these ideas.
It has to be understood that in this conflict between the Arabs and the Jews in a sense there is justice on both sides. Rather than getting involved in who was right in the first place and who began the conflict, it is much more fruitful to concentrate on helping to find a solution to the situation, instead of raking up the old arguments which we have heard so often in the House and elsewhere.
We obviously have to find a solution which will be acceptable to both sides. This will be an exceedingly difficult task for the world, and for those involved. One thing about which we are all cleat, irrespective of whether we have been accused of being pro-Arab or pro-Israeli, is that none of us wishes to see the destruction of Israel. We wish to see the people of Israel and the Arab countries living in peace and security one with the other. Unfortunately, that situation has not existed since the foundation of the State of Israel approximately 20 years ago.
It is absolutely tragic that approximately every 10 years the people of the Middle East have been involved in war


and in the period in between the wars have lived in a permanent state of war psychosis. What are the problems as we found them? I want to list them. First, there is the need to get a general settlement, leading to a permanent peace. Secondly, there is the need, once and for all, to solve the refugee problem, so that these people can be settled and integrated into the society in which they find themselves. Thirdly, there is the question of the future of the occupied territories, and how they will fit in with a peace settlement, and, lastly, there is the future of the city of Jerusalem.
None of these problems, which are all inter-connected, will be easy to solve. At the moment, the position is complete deadlock, both in the Middle East and in the United Nations. The Israelis say that they will not give up any of the territories until they meet, face to face, with the Arab leaders for direct negotiations. On the other hand, the Arab leaders say that they will not negotiate with the Israelis, and that the captured territories must be given up first.
We have had a slight movement in the right direction in the case of Jordan. Like other hon. Members, I very much welcomed the statement of the Prime Minister of Jordan, reported in today's papers, calling for a more realistic policy by the Arab States towards Israel. I can only hope that he will develop that further and more positively when he attends the Arab summit conference, likely to take place shortly. Unless this position is adopted we have an impossible situation here, in which a lasting settlement is never likely to be reached.
I understand that there is a report from Tel Aviv that General Dayan has said that the Gaza Strip, and possibly other territories, should be incorporated into the State of Israel. This report has been subsequently denied. I never once heard this proposal from any of the Cabinet Ministers whom we met or any of the political leaders to whom we talked in Israel. There are ordinary citizens who do not want to annexe the territories, but wish to bring the territories together on the basis of the old Palestinian mandate, and to give the Arab peoples complete equality in every way with the Jewish population. It is an attractive proposi-

tion to me. As an international Socialist, I was much persuaded by this argument.
The reality of the situation is somewhat different. The fact that Israeli people are discussing this, the idea of a 50–50 position, with Jew and Arab both being elected to the Knesset in an equal proportion, is a very interesting idea. It indicates the sort of forward-thinking existing among the citizens of Israel. I do not think that this idealistic view will be accepted by the majority of the people of Israel, who are afraid that it would lead to an Arab majority within at least 10 years, and mean the ending of all that Israel has done, We did not see General Dayan. We met many other Cabinet Ministers, but not the General, so, like everyone else, we have to rely on newspaper reports and second-hand accounts about him.
It is my belief, after this visit, that the overwhelming majority of people in Israel would be very happy to give up the territories at the earliest possible moment. The reason for this is very simple. It is, first, because most of them wish to preserve the Jewish State, and, secondly, because the economic burden of administering these extra territories would cripple the State of Israel in a brief period of time.
Those are the facts. Israel is quite happy to give up this territory. One thing that it wants to do at the moment is to use this as a bargaining factor in a peace settlement. One thing that they are not prepared to give up, and about which they are quite definite, is Jerusalem. This was put to us not only by Cabinet Ministers and people in the streets, but equally by the Communist Party leader, who is very keen, like everyone else, that Jerusalem should remain a united city, under Israeli control.
I do not believe that the resolution passed by the General Assembly of the United Nations calling for the revoking of the recent laws making Jerusalem one city will be accepted by Israel. Again, the reason is very simple. No Israeli Government, whether of the extreme Right or the extreme Left, could last five minutes if it accepted such a proposition. This is the reality of the situation.
It is also interesting to note that when we were there, the people of Old Jerusalem, once the physical barriers


were removed, flooded across into New Jerusalem. Some of them hired taxis and went down to Tel Aviv. The atmosphere was like a festive holiday. Even before the physical barriers were removed, we went through Old Jerusalem without an armed guard, hardly seeing an Israeli soldier.
It is interesting to note that the people of Bethlehem, through their local authority, are now asking why they are being left out, and saying that they wish to become part of the united city. It may be that tourism has something to do with it. Nevertheless, this is being said.
The concept of internationalisation of the whole city is a non-starter. That is "not on". It will not be accepted, first, because the Israelis have made Jerusalem their capital city. In it they have built a wonderful Parliamentary building. It would be a good idea if we had a look at it and adopted some of its facilities in this Chamber. They have built a wonderful university. They have done this within the new city. They have their Government offices there. The memorial to their dead in the Second World War and before in the concentration camps is in the new city. Does anyone think that they will give that up or allow the city to be internationalised?

Mr. Sydney Silverman: Does my hon. Friend recall that the Foreign Secretary, in his speech at the United Nations and in his explanation of that speech in the House later, expressly said that he did not call upon the Israelis to return to a divided city?

Mr. Heffer: Yes, and I was glad to hear it. But the point is that in certain places there have been suggestions of internationalisation of the city. It would not be a divided city, but part of the city which is presently in Israeli control would be taken out of their control. My point is that that will not be accepted.
The second reason why it will not be accepted is a bit difficult for me to understand, because I am not a Jew. It is the question of the Wailing Wall and the holy places to which the Jews were refused admittance for 19 years. It is now part of the united city and Jews throughout the world can go to it. Therefore, they are not likely to give it up. The whole world would be wrong if it believed

that they would give it up. Just as the Moslems would fight to return to Mecca at all costs, and rightly so, so will the Jews fight to retain these places within their united city.

Mr. E. Rowlands: Would my hon. Friend make the additional point that the elected municipal council of Jerusalem might have an Arab majority in the near future to run Jerusalem? Should not that alleviate any fears that the minority of Arabs might be suppressed by the Jews?

Mr. Heffer: I am glad that my hon. Friend has got that point in in case he was not called to speak. I agree entirely with him. That is a valid point.
Having spoken to Israelis at all levels, I am convinced that their one desire is security, to live in peace, and to be allowed the right to build up their State and to continue the great social and economic experiments which are taking place in their country. One hon. Member was quite right when he said that they cannot live in their kibbutz and in their towns and cities under the constant threat of being shelled. No one can live like that. We saw the shelters which the children of the kibbutz used. For days the children lived in their shelters while their homes were being destroyed. No one should be expected to live like that.
My colleagues who happened to be in Cairo just before the war broke out told me that they saw posters on the streets to which they objected, quite rightly, depicting the Jewish character as the Nazi type that we were used to before the war. We did not see any posters like that in Israel about Arabs. However, we went to one of the towns in the Gaza Strip which had been occupied by the Israelis, and I have here a cutting from one of the Israeli papers of one of the pictures—there were 32 of them—painted by girls aged from 12 to 14 years depicting the Arabs destroying Israel and showing the Jew as the Nazi type to which we are all used. It horrified me. What particularly horrified me was the fact that these were young children who obviously had been taught to hate the Arabs and had been told to paint some picture along the lines of their teachings.
This is not propaganda. I am giving the facts. This is what we all saw. We are not united about what should be done in the Middle East, but these are the facts and we all came away thoroughly depressed that young children should be taught this sort of thing. It was sheer hate propaganda.
As far as we could see, the people in Israel want to build Arab-Israeli solidarity. The leaders of the Soviet Union have suggested that the Israelis are now carrying out atrocities against the Arabs. It is possible that individual soldiers or even small units—I have no grounds or evidence for saving this—took action which was not in line with Israeli Government policy. Most hon. Members were in the Armed Forces during the Second World War. Can we put our hands on our hearts and say we never knew of wrongful acts perpetrated by some of our own people? Of course we cannot. I think that the leaders of the Soviet Union do a grave disservice to the world in trying to equate what was done by the Israeli troops with what happened in Nazi Germany.
When we were there, we saw prisoners of war in a municipal hospital in the Gaza Strip. Interestingly enough, the doctor In charge was an Egyptian. He and his colleagues had stayed on to carry out their jobs. They were being very well treated as far as the standards of the hospital were concerned. When one talks about a municipal hospital there, one is not talking about Salford borough municipal hospital or Walton hospital, in my constituency. There is a lot of difference. But the standards had not changed, and undoubtedly they were getting every possible assistance to carry out their job in a medical sense.
The great problem as we see it is the problem of the refugees. We visited a refugee camp in Gaza which can only be described as appalling. The people were living on U.N.R.W.A. rations. They had not had work for almost 20 years, they had never been integrated into the society in which they lived and they were living in camps which undoubtedly had been the recruiting ground for the Palestinian Army of Liberation. I do not know whether they had been kept in those conditions, but they were there. The world should be ashamed that it has

allowed that situation to fester and develop in the Middle East.
I do not believe that the pouring in of more money for more U.N.R.W.A. rations is the answer. That will not solve the problem. What is required is that these people should be settled and integrated with the local population. That requires homes, work, hospitals and decent living standards for these people. The Israelis told us time after time that they are quite prepared to assist in this.
We have heard about Jewish refugees going into Israel. That may be an emotive term. To some, perhaps, they were refugees, but to others they may well be immigrants, depending upon the way one looks at it. Most of those from Eastern countries, however, were on precisely the same level culturally, educationally and economically as the Arabs whom we saw in the camps in the Gaza Strip.
They were not, incidentally, welcomed into homes. That, again, is an emotive term. They were put in camps because there was no alternative. Most of the camps, however, are now completely destroyed and the same people are living in decent homes and working in factories which have been provided by the Israeli Government. The Israelis point to that experience of what they have done with Eastern Jews and say that they can help to do it for the Arabs, because they have the "know-how" and it is possible for them to assist in that direction.
I realise that I am speaking much longer than I should and I will, therefore, draw to a conclusion. I want briefly to refer to the problem of the areas of occupation which has to be solved. Both the Israelis and the Arabs must be prepared to give and take a bit. There is widespread feeling in Israel that the United Nations is not the answer and has been a disappointment. I agree with those hon. Members who have said that it was wrong that the Israelis did not have United Nations troops on their soil. In my view, they should have done.
The widespread feeling of disappointment towards the United Nations arises, however, not only because of U Thant's action. It arises because resolution after resolution was passed at the United Nations agreeing to the free passage of ships through the Suez Canal and the


Tiran Straits, but was never implemented. For the Israelis, therefore, there has been disappointment over a long period.
The Israelis must learn, as everyone else must learn, that the fact that the United Nations has not always lived up to our hopes and its promise does not mean that the United Nations has no rôle to play in the present situation and that we should not turn to it for a solution of some of these difficulties.
I believe that the heights of Syria should come under United Nations control, with an expeditionary force put there with much better terms of reference than was the case for the Sinai Desert. I would think that Gaza, too, should be similarly treated, with, perhaps, local administration. The west bank of the Jordan is a quite different matter. It can be settled, I believe, on the basis of going back in the main to Jordan. Jerusalem is a different problem. As part of the settlement, which the Israelis are prepared to accept, there should be a road or corridor from Jordan to the coast, so that Jordan can have a port, which she does not have at present.
I could have spoken for another hour, or perhaps two hours, on the situation as we saw it and on our ideas arising from our visit. The one thing on which I appeal to the House is not to live in the past. Do not let us wrangle over all the great historical arguments. The people in the Middle East are the victims of history and past imperialism, whether Jew or Arab. Today, they are victims of the policies of the big Powers who are still trying to use the people of Middle East as pawns in their game. It is up to us to reject this. I hope that what I have said may be a small contribution towards a peaceful settlement of the problems of the Middle East.

7.6 p.m.

Mr. John Biggs-Davison: I am glad that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) and his hon. Friends had the opportunity of seeing for themselves something of the State of Israel. I was last there not long after the earlier Sinai campaign and I stayed at a kibbutz called Kfar Hanassi, within range of the Syrian border. It was inhabited by English-speaking Jews, many of them from the part of the coun-

try for which I am Member of Parliament.
During the course of a long tour of the Middle East, it was only there that I was given tea, and not coffee, to drink. I saw men, fresh from sedentary occupations in outer London and Metropolitan Essex, on tractors ploughing up a parched wilderness strewn with boulders, and I have no doubt that by now that desert has been made to blossom. I must confess that ideologically most of the inhabitants of that kibbutz were more akin to the hon. Member for Walton than to me. Nevertheless, they have been very much in my thoughts in recent weeks.
When one discusses the question of who started the conflict, it is a fact that two people from Kfar Hanassi were killed by the Syrians two days before hostilities generally broke out. Israel has faced a running fire of aggression for year upon year.
My sympathy and admiration for Israel does not, however, make me anti-Arab. The Minister of State made the important point this afternoon that it is wrong to equate the Middle East with the Arab world. Some say that Egypt is not in the full sense an Arab country. It is certain that the Nasser dictatorship, which has been subsidised by the Soviet and advised in the important departments—important particularly for a régime of that kind—of police and propaganda by Nazis, is a menace not only to the Israelis, whose extermination it has proclaimed, but to the Arabs and other peoples of the Middle East. It is a dictatorship which arranges the murder not only of Britons, but of Arabs, whether in Aden or elsewhere.
I am glad that the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and my right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) referred to Yemen and, in particular, to the atrocious use of poison gas in the Yemen by Egypt, a signatory of the Geneva Protocol. I have been associated with the Yemen Relief Committee, which has tried, and sometimes succeeded, to send doctors and medicines, bandages and, latterly, even gas masks to the Yemen.
That is still going on. I had a reply from the Minister of State, who said that Her Majesty's Government have received well-substantiated reports that


lethal gas was used several times during May in the mountainous region to the South of Sa'na. The right hon. Gentleman also referred to a less well-substantiated report of it having been used again in the Yemen last month. Both a mustard gas type and choking gas have been used on different occasions.
Before the Second World War, when Mussolini used poison gas in Abyssinia, the horror and protests were world-wide. But when some of us raised this atrocious action by way not only of early day Motions, but also of Parliamentary Questions, the Government told us that protests and action should be left in the first instance to those primarily affected.
There is much talk nowadays of world opinion. Some think of the United Nations as some kind of repository of the universal conscience. If there is such a thing as world opinion, it is strangely selective in its indignation. The United Nations has been silent. I hope that the Government will make at least Britain's voice heard and will not rest content with leaving it to others.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Sir F. Maclean), rightly in my view, pointed out that the Middle East conflict has been a catastrophe for the Soviet Union. Who knows—the régime in Moscow may, in the long run, not even survive it. But it is certain that the Soviet Union will try to rehabilitate their prestige and to restore their influence, or retain some of their influence, with the Arab world by a renewal of offensive and subversive efforts in the direction of Yemen and South Arabia. We were all glad about the volte face of Her Majesty's Government over Aden, but it would have been less cumbersome and less costly if the Government had adhered to the policy of their redecessors—namely, a small base, a foothold and a defence agreement with the successor Government. However, that is past. What is important for Aden, for South Arabia, for the Gulf and for British interests is that the military aid mission should be highly efficient in its work. I hope that the Government will give that the highest priority in this difficult time of transition.
It is often said that imperialism is dead or dying. The hon. Member for Walton

said that the peoples of the Middle East were the victims of imperialism. He referred, no doubt, to the great imperialism. When it is said that imperialism is dead or dying, people usually have in their minds the empires of Europe. But what is happening in Yemen today, and the threat to the South Arabian Federation, arises from a Power which is colonialist in the most classical style. The Pan-Arabism of Cairo reveals itself there as Egyptian colonialism.
I once said this before a university audience, and I was attacked by a very charming Egyptian student. I pointed out that the Egyptians have an army of occupation in the Yemen. I asked. "Have you 50,000 or 60,000 troops there?" He replied, "Yes". And then he used words which were used by the French in Algeria—"But they are discharging a civilising mission". These are indeed the words of classical colonialism, and the instruments of this colonialism are the aerial bombardment of civilians, of unarmed tribesmen and their families, and poison gas.
It is strange how successful Egyptian propaganda has been. It has put the Egyptian case over to many liberal people and other people of the Left. The situation is changing because of what happened recently, but for years we have suffered from the conquest of so many influential people—one can think of a book which has just been published—by the view that President Nasser and his régime represent a progressive force. It is not. It is a destructive force, which has done grave harm in Africa as well as in the Middle East. Although hon. Members opposite may not agree with me, I would say that it is the monarchies of this area, from the Magreb to Iran, who have done more to advance their peoples than the republics dominated by various forms of Arab Socialism.
The right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) took us back into the history of the Turkish empire. That reminded me that President Nasser is anything but an Ataturk. He is much more an Enver Pasha. Enver Pasha passed as a modernising reformer, but what he did was to harness Turkey, to the ruin of Turkey, to the German war machine. It is sad indeed that so able and talented a man as Gamal Abdel Nasser did not, like Ataturk, devote his


energies to the uplift of an impoverished people.
The lot of the Egyptian people is terrible indeed. May I quote three lines from a speech by President Nasser, made on 23rd September, 1966? He was speaking on a day which, with his unfailing flair for public relations, he called Victory Day—the victory at Port Said. He said:
Six million feddan of irrigated land existed in the days of Mohammed Ali when our population was five million. The same amount existed in 1952 when our population was 22 million. We are now 30 million, and since the revolution we had added about 700,000 feddan, but only half of this is cultivated.
Egypt must expand internally or expand abroad, and it is the latter course which, unfortunately, the present régime has chosen. Economic development, for which there would have been aid in plenty from abroad, has been sacrificed to foreign adventure and colonial expansion. The Egyptian State was sold to the Soviet with the cotton. It is, therefore, no more in the interests of the Arabs than in the interests of Israel that Nasser should he rescued again from the ignominy of defeat. There is one last political act, one political service, which he can render, however, and that is to come to a table of peace.
I am one of many British admirers of King Hussein. His visit was most welcome. I think, however, that his miscalculation was extraordinary, because if Egypt, whom he backed, had prevailed, it is certain that the Crown would have fallen from his head and probably his head from his shoulders. The extension of the Kingdom of Jordan from Trans-Jordan to the west bank was probably a mixed blessing for the Hashemite monarchy, but an understanding with Israel has always been a Jordanian interest. Indeed, we are glad of the brave speech of the Prime Minister of Jordan. In a recent utterance the King compared Israel with the Latin kingdom of the Crusaders. Two and a half million Israelis have shown what skill and science, a genius for improvisation, heroism, national unity and a patriotism founded on faith can still achieve in these days of super-Powers.
True, the Israelis had the Mystere, the Mirage, Centurion tanks and the 105 mm. gun, but the Soviet aircraft and equipment placed at the disposal of the U.A.R. and

its satellite Governments were not negligible, and another time it might be better used. In the long run the demographic factor is against Israel. This is why it is so important that we should lend ourselves, so far as we have any influence, to no international pressure to make Israel acept frontiers which would make possible or likely a fourth Middle Eastern war. It is still only nine minutes flying time by jet aircraft from Damascus to Tel Aviv.
The reconciliation of the two branches of the Semitic race is a prime need of mankind. It seems strange to recall that only last year General Dayan was talking in terms of an Israel-Arab partnership within a confederacy of the Levant. It seems a distant prospect now. It seems visionary when the guns have not yet become silent and when burnt children are in torment. [Laughter.] I am sorry that hon. Gentlemen opposite appear to find this amusing.
It seems strange, at a time when the refugee problem has been agonisingly worsened, to speak of the unity of Palestine, round a capital city which could again be common to the State of Israel and the Kingdom of Jordan. I agreed with the hon. Member for Walton when he said that Israel will not give up the City of Jerusalem. On the other hand, I hope that in Jerusalem, whatever its future, the holy places will be held under international guarantee in trust for Jewry, Christendom and Islam, the three religions of a Book.
In 1948, Brigadier-General Allon, who had commanded the Haganah against the British, met a group of Egyptian senior officers on the southern front of Israel. Among them was Colonel Gamal Abdel Nasser. Brigadier-General Allon had this to say, in 1959, recalling that meeting:
This region is normally regarded as an under-developed area. But, at the same time, it offers to its peoples tremendous hopes, if properly developed and harnessed, for the welfare of its peoples. We have in this area enough natural wealth, oil and water, minerals and manpower, know-how and technological ability, to make the Middle East the envy of other less blessed regions. We stand at the crossroads of the world's great communications routes.
From every point of view—economic and political, cultural and strategic—I believe that the ultimate solution for the entire region lies in the creation of a regional organisation, a Middle East commonwealth of sovereign nations"—


one of the ideas which the Israelis took from this country—
inter-dependent on each other for economic, political, cultural, scientific and defensive co-operation. This confederation would not only secure adquate national autonomy for all member States, but also ensure the presence of an efficient organisation to prevent conflict within the region and to establish it as a powerful instrument able to eradicate poverty, disease and illiteracy and to make a considerable contribution to the peace of the world.
I believe the future to lie in some form of Middle Eastern confederacy of nations. I believe, even now, that a country like Britain has a part to play in the Middle East.
Much has been made of the impotence of Europe in this situation and in the recent conflict. But it was interesting to read that the State Department of the United States had given the view that if Britain were to pull out of its responsibilities in Aden and elsewhere in this area, it was not for the Americans to fill the power vacuum but that that was a job for the Europeans.
Israel seeks links with the European Communities. There are two world Powers today, but by the end of the century there will be a third—China. Will there be a fourth, in a Europe looking outward to the Middle East, to Africa, to the Commonwealth and to other lands linked with Europe by interest, history and ideals? Failing such a Europe—and the difficulties in bringing it about are not confined to one side of the Channel, I fear not only for ourselves, but for the world.

7.25 p.m.

Mr. Frank Tomney: It was refreshing to hear the closing remarks of the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison), in which he referred to an outward-looking Europe with a united foreign policy. That is indeed a prospect to be welcomed, and I suggest that whether or not it comes about will depend on Britain's entry into the Common Market.
I do not know whether, at this stage, I can say anything new in this debate. All aspects of this subject appear to have been fully covered. However, certain lessons can be drawn from the situation which has arisen in the Middle East and which, I believe, will be a permanent situation. It is idle to pretend that this

situation can be changed or that it does not exist. Despite the Arabian gift for self-deception, when one turns back the pages of history one sees that it is problematical whether events have shaped man or vice versa.
Two aspects of this conflict have had a permanent effect. One was the precipitate withdrawal by U Thant of the United Nations peacekeeping force. The other was the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 24th May at Margate, in which he said that the United Kingdom would assert, on behalf of British shipping, the right of freedom of passage, through the Straits of Tiran. My right hon. Friend is not usually as forthright as that. They were forceful words and, on rereading them, I consider that the Israeli nation had every right at that stage to think that positive action would flow. But positive action did not flow.
It became obvious within a matter of hours that France was sliding out of its obligations under the 1957 guarantee in respect of the Straits. It was obvious within 24 hours that the United States —very well advised; I thought that I detected the voice of Dean Acheson in it—had decided not to interfere directly in the dispute. In that situation the Israelis, faced with possible annihilation, adopted a good old Lancashire proverb, "If you are going to be clouted, you had better get a clout in first" They struck with tremendous brilliance and efficiency; and we now have a changed situation.
It would be idle to offer advice to the Israelis. In any case, they do not want it. One thing they have established is the right to negotiate by their own might. This should not be taken from them, especially by the United Nations in its present tattered and battered state. Until we can get the Arab countries and Israel directly across the conference table, I cannot see any future settlement that is permanent. Until there is this recognition by the Arabs that this is a country which is now, under the United Nations auspices, fully recognised and has a rightful place in the world, I cannot see any settlement. However, this must come inside the conference room between Arabs and Jews.
It might be said, at this stage, that United States policy was somewhat in


abeyance, if not lacking. The Americans have, in the main, honoured their international commitments whenever and wherever they have existed. It is instructive to consider U.S. policy. It used to be held in this House that what the U.S. Diplomatic Corps could do with more than anything else was the expertise of the British Foreign Office. It has been proved since the Second World War that no such thing is necessary. The U.S. has managed very well indeed, thank you, and it is a nation well advised and able to look after itself when the "chips" are down.
This has been shown on many occasions, including Cuba. When a decision has had to be made, it has been made. The consequences were weighed and the decision was taken. In his confrontation with the Russians over Cuba, the late President Kennedy proved conclusively, and the rest of the world must look at this, that the prospects of a direct confrontation between Russia and the Western world is out, once and for all.
Despite her involvement and meddling in the Middle East for her own power purposes, Russia has had a salutary lesson. I am told that the value of the equipment captured by the Israelis totalled £1,000 million. This lesson is not lost on Moscow and I agree that although heads in the Kremlin will not roll in the old-fashioned way, their owners will lose their jobs over this incident.
Dean Rusk has gone to Vietnam. Whatever was said between Mr. Kosygin and President Johnson, it is now becoming apparent that a certain situation is beginning to develop. We have a situation in which, when the cards are called, the Americans are quite firm on every issue. Why were they not quite firm on this issue—United States interests were not directly affected, the oil was not directly affected at that stage, nor were American installations or finance—unless they counted the cost, measured the risk and looked at the issue in the same way as the Israeli High Command did? If they did that, it was a remarkable piece of judgment formed many miles from the confrontation. The confrontation, which lasted only five days, will become part of the military manual for some of the High Commands of the West, given a similiar situation.
The United States, having this dreadful conflict in Vietnam on their hands, are turning more and more inward to isolation—opinion is forcing that on them —but in the Middle East we have the most explosive area in the world. Our industrial lifeblood is concentrated there, and any interruption or withdrawal of supplies of that lifeblood could put the country in a flat spin financially. We have an investment in capital equipment alone of probably £6,000 million, a balance of payments revenue, of perhaps, £500 million, and our export trade to that area probably amounts to another £500 million. It is, therefore, vital that we should retain as much good will as we can in the Arab and Moslem countries.
This is where the Foreign Secretary has been very wise in his approach. This Moslem world, stretching from Morocco to Indonesia, is a very real thing, and Russia was meddling in the Middle East to get and maintain control of this great political force that has been virtually leaderless for 25 years. I have always been astounded that the Moslems in India allowed themselves to be led by Gandhi and Nehru, and have never become a permanent voice in the United Nations. That is the stake for which Russia was playing in the Moslem world.
One of the things that flows from having power is the ability to use it judiciously, and to know when to use it. The Middle East situation has demonstrated something that was not previously apparent. Great Britain, along with France, has been claiming four-Power status at international conferences on international issues. That idea has gone for good. It has been clearly demonstrated that there are only two at the top table—Russia and the United States. Both France and ourselves have been contracted out very easily by this confrontation—and it is something that we shall have to learn to live with —because the new defence arrangements in the Middle East will be the direct result of whatever Power talks took place between Johnson and Kosygin. New defence alignments will be made.
The situation that has arisen is that if Israel, not having the benefit of guarantees for the uninterrupted passage of her ships through the Suez Canal and the Straits of Tiran, is not able, either by pact through the United Nations or through


her own arrangements, to obtain the most concrete promises of aid and protection against further aggression she will be driven to acquiring nuclear arms. She will have to acquire them. If she does, any non-proliferation treaty goes right out of the window, because both India and Pakistan will want them and there will be prospects of further development.
The United Nations' votes yesterday were valuable in lots of respects because they demonstrated that the former premier voice in shaping world opinion—that of the under-developed nations—was on this occasion missing, but something has arisen that we should do well to look at, and that is the position of France.
France has always been ambiguous about her policy in the interests of France, and when we get ambiguity and machiavellianism running together in harness we have a situation that needs very careful watching. France did very well out of arms contracts with the Israelis, and even yesterday negotiated further contracts, yet among the Arab nations no odium rests on her as it does on Great Britain in regard to arms supplies.
Why is this? Why has do Gaulle, possessed as he is by the illusion of grandeur, once again managed to slide out from under, and to readjust his policies throughout the world in the interests of France, as he thinks? I have had several letters from Washington in the last few days from well-informed and reliable political journalists telling me that the talk there is that France has been making a determined effort to secure the position with regard to Arabian oil now occupied by Great Britain and the United States; deliberately encouraging the nationalisation of the oil fields as long as she supplies the management, the expertise and the marketing.
There are those, and I am among them, who hold the view that France could not manage that alone but, if it did come about, I am sure that she would find willing allies, particularly the Japanese and the Italians. That would have dire consequences—consequences that neither the United States nor ourselves could afford. The cost to the Americans would probably be 8,000 million dollars, and for us it would be calamitous. If the talk going round in Washington is true, the

strongest representations should be made to the Quai d'Orsay as quickly as possible.
It really is selling Great Britain down the river, and it should not be tolerated, Common Market or not. I have every reason to believe that this manœuvre is on. We saw it happen in Algeria. We saw de Gaulle's policy there and the way in which he double-crossed his friends—probably for the best reasons, he thinks. To do this, and to interfere as he is interfering at this stage with us, creates a situation at which we should have a long, hard look.
I intervened during the speech of the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) on the question of settlement of the refugee problem. This has been a whipping-post for many years. I think that the Israelis have made genuine efforts to deal with it. I have seen these refugee camps in the past. There are people there who were born there; the problem is so old. Arab unity, the Arab League and Arab nationalism, fall apart when the poor Arab nations want a share of the oil revenues for development. The only event which has proved an exception was when Kuwait invested £100 million in economic aid for Iraq. Had she not done so, there would have been a lot of pressure on Iraq to take over the oil installations altogether. There is revenue there for the settlement of the refugee problem, which could be tackled. This must be brought home somehow to the Arabs. They must be shown that there is now a new situation in the Middle East.
I do not think that the Israelis should move one jot at the conference table until they get the firmest guarantees that no further aggression will take place and that the refugee problem is on the way to being settled. This could be done if the West could get some money out of the Arab States. It may not be possible, but it is worth trying. The situation in regard to King Hussein is worth exploiting. His country is the nearest neighbour to the Israelis and he probably is the most malleable in terms of diplomatic pressure. For years we poured money into Jordan and he has growing problems over refugees, but he has not the money to support them.
Every effort should be made for the settlement of the refugee problem. This


would mean large calls on Jewish finance. I do not think that we could get money out of the United Nations, divided as it is, but other nations could make a contribution and this grievous problem could be tackled. I do not think that it is out of the scope of thought required of the Jewish people. I think that they will bend every effort towards seeking a solution.
The broad concept of the thought of the Foreign Secretary on this matter has been right. He has realised the difficulty of the Israeli problem. He has realised the tremendous potential of the world Moslem population. He has realised the vital economic interest of Great Britain in the Middle East in balance of payments and industrial oil supply. He made a speech on Aden a few weeks ago which was well received by some of us. It was not well received by all my colleagues. I think that it should be said in this Chamber, and not in a Committee Room, that a speech of that character could not have been made without the full backing of the Cabinet. On that occasion he was not speaking personally as George Brown, or the Foreign Secretary, but with the full authority of the Cabinet in its view of the Aden situation.
The Cabinet had taken up a new posture. It adhered to the date of departure, 9th January, but in the meantime the Government had not only given themselves time for manoeuvre but had studied the worsening of morale of British troops who have to maintain and control the situation until the day they depart. That is fast running away. In the speech which my right hon. Friend made with the full authority of the Cabinet, he was right and he has been recognised to be right since. In view of all his difficulties, this should be said at this point in the debate. We shall clear out of Aden. We cannot say yet how much bloodshed there will be. I think that there will be some. We cannot say whether the Arabian States will settle down in a federation and whether it will be a democracy. One cannot make democrats overnight. They have to grow and live together for a number of years. But so long as the principle and the intention are right, that is the main thing.
I return to the point on which I started. This situation in the Middle East, this

new alignment of forces, the refugee problem and the situation in which Israel now finds herself is a new and permanent situation. It would be idle for the House of Commons to pretend that it is not. The focus of the United Nations should be on the situation as it is, not as we would like it to be. Now that this confrontation is over—and thank God it was over much quicker than people hoped and with less bloodshed than they thought there would be—Israel is an accepted kingdom. We can argue whether it should have been established or not. There were fears and valid arguments at the time, but I think that everyone is now agreed that Israel has a right to live. It is up to Her Majesty's Government to devote everything they can to ensure this possibility, which is not only deeply to be desired, and argued for, but one in which Israel must be drawn into direct contact between nation and nation.

7.48 p.m.

Mr. Peter Blaker: I was glad that the Minister of State said a word about the value of the presence of British Forces in the Persian Gulf, because it seems to me that one of the more bizarre claims which have been made about recent events is that they show there is no use in the presence of British Forces east of Suez. We might equally well say that the Franco-Prussian War demonstrated that there was no value at that time in the presence of British Forces in Britain because the war took place right on our doorstep and they did not fire a shot. I have no doubt that some hon. Members below the Gangway opposite would have supported that proposition if they had been here at the time of the Franco-Prussian war, but that does not impress me with its force.
I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) has left the Chamber, because I want to take issue with two things he said. He attacked the idea that we have some sort of undefined peacekeeping rôle in the Persian Gulf. I do not know what he meant by "undefined". I believe we have a pretty clearly defined peacekeeping rôle, clearly defined because of the treaty arrangements we have with States in the Persian Gulf. For example, five or six years ago we came


to the aid of Kuwait. We saved the life of Kuwait pursuant to a treaty obligation.
We have not only defined obligations but we have very important interests in the Persian Gulf. We own a lot of oil. The right hon. Gentleman said that he would like us to buy the oil. He must realise that if we were simply to buy the oil without owning it that would place a tremendous burden on our balance of payments. I wonder if he has worked out how much it would cost us in dollars. If we did not own the oil we would have to buy it, no doubt in dollars, and we would not have the advantage which we get of selling oil for dollars to other countries.
I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman the former Leader of the Liberal Party has worked out how much it would cost us in foreign currency in that situation. I do not have very much hope this evening of extracting from the Government an estimate, because I know they are very cagey about giving figures of that kind. I am sure the House would be interested if they were prepared to do so. It is incumbent on the former Leader of the Liberal Party, if he says that he would like to see us buy the oil, that he should admit that the burden on our balance of payments would be something like £200 million a year.

Mr. Tomney: Five hundred million pounds.

Mr. Blaker: I would not dispute that figure. It may well be more than the figure which I quoted.
If the right hon. Gentleman says that we should give up our peace-keeping rôle in the Persian Gulf, is it not incumbent upon him to say who he thinks will fulfil that rôle? The Secretary of State for Defence last year said that the United Nations is not capable in present circumstances of carrying out the peace-keeping rôle which we have been carrying out. It would be a brave man who claimed that since those remarks were made the ability of the United Nations to fulfil that rôle has increased.
It will certainly not be the Americans who will take over the peace-keeping rôle which we have been fulfilling in the Middle East. Indeed, if we were to give it up I think it might be a further and

dangerous step towards persuading the Americans to withdraw upon themselves, because they have in recent years had a barrage of criticism about their action in Vietnam, and they have had to undergo a sustained fire of criticism from France, quite unjustifiably. They feel that other countries, their allies, are not playing the part which they ought to play in keeping the peace in Asia and, indeed, in Europe and elsewhere.
Hon. Members may be aware that there is a resolution before the United States Senate, the Mansfield resolution, which has attracted the support of nearly half the Senate, calling for a massive reduction in American forces in Europe. The American gold reserves have been halved in recent years because of the payments across the exchanges which the Americans have had to make to sustain the peacekeeping rôle which they have been pursuing.
If we pull out of our peace-keeping rôle in the Middle East, this may well be the last straw, or one of the last straws, to persuade the Americans to pack it up and to withdraw to the American continent; let us not forget that the American continent can sustain itself without the rest of the world if necessary.
What should Britain be doing in the Middle East? I take the view that the basic situation in the Middle East is and has been for some years as follows. There is one country, the United Arab Republic, which has had a policy of changing the status quo by force and subversion. In proof of that, one does not need to look very far. There is the action it took over the Straits of Tiran. There is the constant outpouring of Cairo Radio. It would be salutary for hon. Members to look at the monitored version of Cairo Radio broadcasts, which are readily available from the B.B.C. This surpasses the horror stories that our children read nowadays. The savagery of the language of Cairo Radio is hard to believe. Its call for terror and assassination is directed at any country which happens for the time being, to incur the wrath of President Nasser.
Six years ago Cairo Radio directed its venom against the African leaders of Kenya. It is hard to imagine that for some reason at that time those leaders incurred the disfavour of the U.A.R. régime. The call went out for their


assassination. Fortunately, that call was dropped later on. That call was equally violent in the case of the African leaders of Kenya as it was in the case of the Arab leaders in Aden and South Arabia of whom the U.A.R. disapproves.
I take the view that there will not be a stable peace in the Middle East until the United Arab Republic gives up its basic policy of seeking to change the situation in that area by subversion and force. If that is to happen, then the U.A.R. has to come to see that that policy will not work. I do not suggest that there is much that the British Government can do to achieve that end, although there is something to which I shall come in a few moments. One has to admit that the country with the major influence in pushing the U.A.R. towards, one hopes, a more sensible policy, is the Soviet Union. Most hon. Members who have spoken in the debate have taken a pessimistic view about the attitude of the Soviet Union at the present time. One reads in the newspapers of arms supplies being furnished by the Russians. That may be true. In fact, I have no doubt it is true that arms supplies are going in. One does not know how modern they are or how much is involved. People have based themselves on the propaganda charges that the Soviet Union has mounted in the United Nations. But I would have been surpised, whatever the future policy of the Soviet Union is going to be towards the Middle East, if the Soviet Union had not done both those things—furnished arms supplies and put out propaganda.
I think there are two encouraging signs which perhaps allow a glimmer of hope that the Soviet Union will recognise that to stoke up the United Arab Republic again to adopt aggressive policies is too dangerous, and that next time it may well lead to a nuclear war. It is significant that Mr. Kosygin was prepared to meet President Johnson when he went to the United States. It did not necessarily follow that he would do so, but in fact he was prepared to do it and to incur the inevitable criticism which he has received from China and other parts of the Communist bloc. Secondly, it is significant that the Russian who went to Cairo was President Podgorny. Why did they send their President to Cairo? If one has good news to give, one does not have to send the President. But because

it was President Podgorny who went, it seems possible that the news he conveyed was unpalatable, and that President Nasser had to be assuaged by the fact that the person who brought him the news was somebody important.
I said earlier that there is one thing that Britain can do to persuade the United Arab Republic to abandon its policy of expansion by force. That is to make sure that things do not degenerate into chaos in South Arabia. I hope this evening the Foreign Secretary will give us an assurance that even if the situation gets worse in South Arabia, there will be no question of the British Government's throwing in the sponge and saying that they cannot cope. The tragedy of the Government's announcement last year that it would not conclude a defence agreement with South Arabia has been that it has been one factor in making the situation worse and in creating a situation which possibly may enable President Nasser to save something from the wreckage of his policies. He has failed in the Yemen and he has failed in relation to Israel. Let us hope he will not have in South Arabia the success which he needs to keep him in office and which may convince him that his expansionist policies are not so bad after all.
I therefore welcome the change in policy which the Foreign Secretary announced a short time ago. I should like to ask one precise question about that policy. The Foreign Secretary said that the aircraft carrier would remain in the area for six months after independence. Why six months? One of the key dates in the history of an independent South Arabia will be its admission to the United Nations, because, when that comes, it will signal that the world community has accepted South Arabia as an independent country.
It is my understanding that, in the ordinary course of events, that admission could not take place before the autumn, because, unless there is a special session, the General Assembly will not meet until September, eight or nine months after independence. Therefore. assuming that the presence of the aircraft carrier will have a certain value, as I think it will, would it not be better to have it remain in the area for rather longer than six months, long enough to see South Arabia


over that stage? Why was six months chosen?
What can Britain do in the Arab-Israel dispute? Not very much. We shall not, in the foreseeable future, be in a position to mediate. But we can, I believe, do two things. One is to throw our weight against any attempt to chivvy the Israelis out of the territories which they have acquired before they have satisfactory assurances that the Arabs recognise that they will continue there as a nation and satisfactory assurances about their rights to free passage through the Suez Canal and the Gulf of Aqaba.
Because I take that view, I congratulate Her Majesty's Government on the stand which they took at the United Nations in opposing the relevant resolution. The key to peace in the Middle East will be acceptance by the Arabs of the proposition that Israel will continue to exist. For us or the international community to chivvy the Israelis into giving up the main card in their hands, the possession of the territory which they have gained, before those assurances are given would merely lead back to the situation which we have had over the past few years and there would be no incentive to the Arabs to be more realistic in accepting the existence of Israel.
The second opportunity open to Britain has already been mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home). I hope that the Government will treat it seriously. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will tell us, when he winds up, that Britain will now propose at the United Nations that a feasibility study be made of the possibility of installing in the Middle East the necessary number of desalination plants. Britain is particularly well qualified to make this proposal, I understand that two-thirds of the atomic desalination plants which exist in the world today have been supplied by this country.
Moreover, this is a subject particularly suitable for the United Nations. The Minister of State suggested that the United Nations might have a rôle to play in actually achieving a peace treaty. Let us hope that it will, though I think it optimistic to look forward to that at the moment, but the desalination project is

one in which the United Nations is eminently suited to act now, and, if it can ever be set on foot, it might be run by a United Nations agency.
I hope that the Government will attach importance to this key proposal. If the water problem in the Levant is transformed, the refugee problem is transformed. If the refugee problem is transformed, one makes a start in transforming the political problem as well.
Undoubtedly, the cost would be immense. My right hon. Friend mentioned a figure of several hundred millions of pounds. But would it be any higher than the cost of continuing to hand out doles to 1¼ million refugees, quite apart from the human costs of misery and unemployment? We should accept that the cost would be high, but it would be tolerable. It would certainly be less than the cost of another round of conflict in another ten years.

8.5 p.m.

Mr. David Weitzman: I very much admired the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heller), who gave a first-hand account of what he had seen, had heard and had thought, together with his colleagues. He said something about not harking back to the past. I propose to hark back to the past, nevertheless, because I am very critical of some of the observations made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State and of the attitude of the Government in this matter.
I represent a constituency where there are thousands of British citizens of the Jewish faith. They have always acknowledged the debt which they have owed to this country, which has been foremost in recognising, in realistic fashion, the equality of all, irrespective of their faith, and which has been forthright in the condemnation of religious persecution. I hope that in return these people of the Jewish faith have done their duty as good citizens in both peace and war.
They were proud that, under the Balfour Declaration, a haven for Jewish refugees was provided, which was the foundation and basis of the Jewish State. I appreciate as well as anyone the difficulties which have confronted different British Governments in the problems of


the Middle East, but, looking back over the years, I cannot but be critical of the attitude adopted by Governments of this country from time to time.
When the mandate was withdrawn in 1948 and the United Nations proposed partition, Britain abstained. She was careful to take no active step to implement the United Nations proposals. I have looked through the debate. I well remember my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman) severely criticising the Government's attitude.
Whatever may be said about promises made by Britain to Arabs and Jews, the fact remains that Israel as a State was recognised by the United Nations. Indeed, on might say that it was created by the United Nations. To quote Gromyko in the General Assembly:
It will be unjust if we do not take account of this aspiration of the Jews to a State of their own.… The denial of this right cannot be justified, especially if we take into account everything that the Jewish people underwent during the Second World War".
Israel responded by building up a State, which many of us have visited, a State which desired to live in peace, free from attack by her neighbours, with no thought of territorial aggrandisement. But that peace was not to be, and there followed the war of 1957. Israel triumphed and stood in occupation of the land of her aggressors. She withdrew. in reliance on the promises made to her.
It is of the greatest importance today, when we are discussing the affairs of the Middle East and, in particular, the attitude of Her Majesty's Government, to refer back to what was said in the House then. On 25th February, 1957, Mr. Macmillan, then Prime Minister, emphasised that the withdrawal of Israel should be accompanied by United Nations responsibility for the Gaza Strip, and that it should be made clear beyond a peradventure both by the United Nations and by leading maritime powers that they regarded access to the Gulf of Aqaba as free to the world.
On 14th March, in the debate on the Middle East, the then Foreign Secretary, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd), pointed out that no country had legal sovereignty over the Gaza Strip, and he said that the

Strip should be made a United Nations responsibility. He said:
… Israel, by her withdrawal has fully complied with the first Resolution of the General Assembly on 2nd February.
He said later:
The United Nations accepted the creation of the State of Israel, and it cannot … permit its destruction.
He further made this observation, which is of paramount importance:
… we shall not get peace unless Israel has more sensible frontiers".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th March, 1957; Vol. 566, c. 1321–30.]
He said that there should be guarantees of the frontiers.
I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is here, because I particularly want to refer to a speech that was then made by the official spokesman for the Labour opposition, the late Aneurin Bevan. He said:
Therefore, what have we to do today, in my view, if we want to be helpful, is not to deride the ambiguity of the expectations but to underline their authority, because it must be accepted that Israel physically acted on the basis of those assumptions. She withdrew, and, therefore, by that very act, attached as much tangibility to the promise made as could possibly have been made in the circumstances. On both sides of the House, I think that we expect that the United Nations will see to it that Israel's act of courageous faith will not go unrequited.
He added:
It would be an appalling event, in my view. It would strike a blow at the confidence of statesmen all over the world if Mr. Ben-Gurion, who took his political life in his hands in persuading his countrymen to retreat on these conditions, now finds himself faced with what could only be described as an act of faithlessness on the part of those who persuaded him to do what he did.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th March, 1957; Vol. 566, c. 1336–67.]
Israel was betrayed. Over the years that intervened there were constant attacks, constant threats to her very existence. Typical of them was the remark made by the spokesman of the Palestine Liberation Army on 1st May this year, that he was eager for war to destroy Israel, and of Nasser on 26th May that: "Our basic object is to destroy Israel". There was the withdrawal of the United Nations force, the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba and, in the face of all this, we have the impudent assertion that Israel was the aggressor. I suppose


that Israel is typical of the wicked dog which, when attacked, dares to defend itself.
What was the Government's attitude to what Egypt did? True enough, in his speech on 31st May in the debate on the Middle East my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary set out the position in fair terms. True enough, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said at Margate on 24th May that the Straits of Tiran must be regarded as an international waterway through which the vessels of all nations had a right of passage. True enough, we tried to get the support of the other maritime nations. We failed. It was all very well urging that there should be a response from the United Nations, that there should be action authorised by the Security Council to raise the blockade. It was all very well to urge restraint on Israel, but as the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) said in the debate on 31st May:
The plain fact — is that Israel simply cannot stay passive while the life is slowly squeezed out of her."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 31st May; Vol. 747, c. 194.]
From the statement of the foreign secretary on 5th June after hostilities had broken out, indeed, at a time when most people thought that little Israel fighting against overwhelming odds and, taking her life in her hands, might well be annihilated, Britain's concern was not to take sides.
Frankly, I had hoped that at an earlier date the Government would take a more positive attitude. It may be asked, "What could we have done?". I know the difficulties—our economic interests in the Middle East, our desire to be on good terms, the desire to prevent a conflagration. But when little Israel had shown the world that she would not be destroyed, and some of the nations of the world chose to put down unjustifiable resolutions of condemnation in the United Nations, I hoped that Britain would take up the attitude that "Nye" Bevan adopted officially on our behalf when we were in Opposition. I had hoped that we would declare unequivocally that we recognised the betrayal which had taken place and that we stood by Israel. That would have been a moral act of the highest standing which

would have redounded to the credit of Britain in the world.
Instead, what did we do? There was a declaration that we would not take sides. What did we get? We had a speech made by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary at the United Nations. That speech has been severely criticised. My right hon. Friend says that it was misunderstood, that the criticism was based on excerpts in Press reports, and that his speech was wrongly judged in that way. Well, I have studied the complete text of that speech. I have it here. I have looked through it carefully. The Foreign Secretary spoke of territorial aggrandisement, linking that term clearly with Israel as if that were her object—a view worthy of Soviet propaganda. He gave a solemn warning to Israel, no doubt shaking his finger in typical fashion, as if Israel were a naughty child, with regard to Jerusalem. I have been terribly disappointed by the Government's attitude. I do not think that it is worthy of Labour Party policy, of which I have been a supporter for many years.
Of course, there is an Arab case and Israel recognises this. But one does not neip to solve the mattor by speaking of Israel as if she engaged upon an adventure in order to obtain territorial aggrandisement, which is what the Charter of the United Nations condemns. As the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral said in the debate in 1957, there will be no peace unless Israel has more sensible frontiers and these frontiers are guaranteed. Israel cannot live in peace unless that is done.
Is it territorial aggrandisement to try to achieve that now? We should base our policy on real principles and not merely on immediate short-term remedies. We have substantial economic interests in the Middle East, but history has shown that trade and economic relations largely depend on mutual interests and not on politics.
There is a number of problems that must be faced. The first is the recognition that the Middle East crisis can only be solved by negotiation between the parties, with as little interference as possible by other powers. I am a strong supporter of an effective United Nations, but we must be realistic in this matter. It is a


fallacy to think that that body, comprised of many nations and composed of conflicting interests and continual lobbying, with difficulty in coming to decisions, can possibly solve this problem.
Britain should do everything in her power by exerting her influence and by emphasising to other nations the necessity for direct negotiations. The United Nations may well play a useful part in guaranteeing any settlement. There must be an adjustment of the frontiers of Israel so that she is made safe, free from aggression.
In this connection, there is the problem of Jerusalem. There is not only the fact that Jerusalem has been the eternal city, the centre of the Jewish faith and religion for thousands of years. Its condition for the last 20 years was unnatural. The two parts were separated by armed sentries, minefields and barbed wire. There were outbreaks of hostility which resulted in many religious and other buildings being destroyed and many people being killed.
Twenty years ago Israel was prepared to co-operate with the United Nations' proposal for internationalisation. But that is simply impracticable now. I draw attention to the remarks by my hon. Friend the Member for Walton in this connection. Some hon. Members have spoken of the holy shrines. Since Israel's occupation of Jerusalem she has shown how anxious she is to co-operate in every way conducive, in her own words, "to effective expression of the immunity and sanctity of all the holy places", something previously denied, and she is perfectly content and happy that each of the holy shrines should be administered by the faith to which it belongs.
Everyone has sympathy for the refugees. But we must remember that there are Arab refugees and Jewish refugees. From 1947 until June this year there were nearly 800,000 Jewish refugees who left or were forced to leave Arab countries because of Arab hostility, in many cases losing everything they possessed. Their number has been added to considerably since June of this year because of Arab oppression. Israel has tackled the problem of resettling these refugees. She has not asked any of the nations of the

world to assist her. She has not treated these refugees as a political pawn.
In contrast, the Arabs have used the Arab refugees as a pawn in their hostility to Israel. Israel has made many efforts to join others in effecting a just settlement. Again I suggest this is a matter for direct negotiation between Jews and Arabs with as little interference from other nations as possible, except that other nations, as well as the United Nations, could assist with economic help as well as by persuading the Arabs to get together with the Jews and settle the problem of the refugees. I would only add that steps should be taken to ensure that any economic help given is not used for other purposes.
There remains the vital problem of the supply of arms. Obviously, if arms are supplied to one side, the other side is put in dire peril. I know that Britain took steps to try to obtain a universal cessation of such supplies. It is perhaps questionable whether she did it in the right way or at the right time, but at any rate today it is an important matter, and I hope that some real effort will be made in this direction. It may be a hopeless effort. It may be that other nations will not agree—we know the attitude of Soviet Russia—but I think that a real effort to try to achieve that object would be worth while.
Israel won a war unaided. The alternative was to be destroyed and to have her citizens massacred. She desires no territorial aggrandisement. Her sole desire is to live in peace, with frontiers properly protected, to develop her country and to enjoy the rights enjoyed by other nations, no more and no less. If international waterways are open to other nations, be it the Gulf of Aqaba or the Suez Canal, they should be open in the same to Israel. I hope that the Government will adopt the attitude of doing everything in their power to help Israel achieve these objects.

8.25 p.m.

Mr. Neil Marten: I hope that the hon. and learned Member for Stoke Newington and Hackney, North (Mr. Weitzman) will forgive me if I do not follow his general line of argument, which, I think, is one for the Foreign Secretary to answer. However, I would follow on from his last point about arms.
This matter was raised by the right hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. I3ellenger), who made a very strong appeal to the Government to "come clean" on a policy about arms exports to the Middle East.
If this is to be considered, I hope that it will be a policy of equality of arms exports to the various countries, and that Britain will not make any silly attempt on her own to stop arms exports to the Middle East, because, as we have seen in South Africa, all that happens is that the French move in and the countries concerned get their arms in the end and our own arms industry suffers. But I would certainly support a policy of equality of treatment and a balanced export of arms to the Middle East.
I take up another point from the speech of the Minister of State and my intervention about the Suez Canal. My criticism is that the Under-Secretary of State told the House on the Thursday afternoon—it was after the fighting was over—that he did not know whether the Suez Canal was blocked or not, but that he would tell the House immediately he had the information I think that it was 10 days later when the Foreign Secretary told us the situation about the canal. So I can only assume that for 10 days before, and, indeed, more than that, we did not know what the situation in the Suez Canal was —at least we were not told about it —whether it was blocked or whether it was not. This—I know that one is on touchy, delicate ground here—is a criticism of our intelligence services. It must be.
The Minister of State said in reply to my intervention that the reason was that there was a war going on. But what sort of intelligence service is it that "packs up" immediately a war starts? That is the very time that one wants intelligence coming in. But I leave the matter there. Perhaps Lord Radcliffe, who is an expert on intelligence services, may have a look at it.
The debate has been conducted in rather a sober way, and rightly so, because, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) said, it is never quite the right time to have a debate on the Middle East. But I think that it is our right and duty to speak in this debate

frankly and clearly because the situation concerns not only the Middle East, but the whole world and also peace. How nearly we might have had a world war if the conflict had gone the other way—
The background to the debate is the defeat of Nasser. I wish to deal with the question of Nasser and his resignation. He resigned at 5.30 or 6 p.m. on the Friday evening, and shortly afterwards, or the next morning, he was reinstated as the leader of Egypt. According to my information, on the Wednesday before the Friday when he resigned he was approached by a number of officers to resign together with the chiefs of staff and the commander-in-chief. He said that he would. He sacked the commander-in-chief and the chiefs of staff and said that he would go. He then went on the radio on Friday afternoon at 5.30 p.m. and said that he was going to resign.
Immediately afterwards—in fact, almost before it—crowds started whipping up enthusiasm for the cry, "Nasser must not go". In my view, what went wrong was that the Army officers who asked him to resign were inexperienced in politics whereas Nasser was so experienced that he got his supporters to whip up support in the streets for demand that he stay.
I believe that the Egyptian people only demanded that he stay because they did not know the truth about the catastrophe of the war. Now the truth must be beginning to seep through as the soldiers return—and we have seen pictures of the wounded troops being helped across the canal by the Israelis and others. The Egyptian people may well now be taking a different view of Nasser and this same group of officers or another group may feel that they have had enough of Nasser.
It may be, therefore, that, in a few weeks' time, we shall see a very different situation in Egypt, with Nasser possibly gone. In our consideration of the problems of the Middle East this is something that we should take into account when looking ahead. I would not suggest that we in this country ought to stir it up or play any part in it. Whether Nasser stays or goes must be entirely a matter for the Egyptian people themselves.
All Arabs—and I would include in them the Egyptians—must surely now regard Nasser with considerable disapproval. As many hon. Members have


pointed out, there have been his venture in the Yemen, his pointless aggression there, his imperialism, his use of gas, his lies about British aircraft participating in the war. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heller) described very graphically the hate propaganda with which the children of Egypt are being fed. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) referred to the stories put out by Cairo Radio.
All these lies and actions will, I believe, bounce back on Nasser. I hope that they will strangle him in the end. There has been the complete failure of his forces, although they were supplied with modern equipment by the Russians. Finally, he has bankrupted Egypt. I do not believe that any genuine Arab could possibly have much respect for a man who behaves like that and gets his country and the whole Middle East into such a situation.
I believe that Nasser may well be deposed by the Egyptians in the weeks to come. If he is, I would hope that his successor would not be a Nasserite but a more reasonable Egyptian able to get Egypt straight again. His first task must be getting the economy of Egypt straight and at peace. With a new Egyptian leader and with a sensible policy which rejects Egyptian imperialism and concentrates on bettering the lot of the Egyptian people, Britain and the United States must be ready to help. It will be a vast task but we should think about it and be prepared for it.
In the meantime, Russia will be doing all it can to upset the political equilibrium in the Middle East. We have heard much about Russa's extraordinary performance. We have heard how she poured arms into Egypt to supply ineffective fighting forces, encouraging them into action and then doing nothing to support them. Now, apparently, the Russians are rearming the Egyptians, whether with MiG 17s or MiGs 21s and how many we do not know. I suspect that the Russians are rearming Egypt not to make another aggressive war, but merely to keep Nasser sufficiently strong to keep the Middle East stirred up in a continual state of turmoil.
I do not believe that the Russians are interested in the Arabs, but only in using them and causing the maximum political disturbance in the Middle East. The Government, if they can, should

use every stratagem to stop the Russians rearming Egypt. How they would do it I do not know—the Government would know the methods—but if it could be achieved it would be a very great contribution to the present situation in the Middle East. As I said earlier, if Nasser is replaced by a more reasonable man, Britain and America should help the Egyptian people. It is in our interest to do this; it is in our interest to weaken Russian influence in the Middle East.
At that point of time, there may well be some sense in Britain, with her great and traditional knowledge of the Middle East, offering her good offices to mediate between the Israelis and the Arabs in this conflict. The prime responsibility must rest with the Israelis and the Arabs themselves, although mediation from our side might be a good thing.
As for Britain remaining in the Middle East, I was glad to hear the Government today obviously realising that to withdraw now from the Middle East would create instability. I believe this to be so, because the basic ingredient of the crisis, which is Israel, will remain in the Middle East for a very long time and I hope sincerely that the Arabs and the Israelis will be realistic in the years to come. Equally, I hope that the Government will be realistic and accept that total withdrawal from that area would undoubtedly leave a power vacuum which would only increase the instability of the Middle East and make peace more difficult to achieve.
Finally, this is a situation in which the United Nations at this stage cannot even begin to cope with the problems ahead as long as Russia is determined to upset the political equilibrium of the Middle East. Therefore, it is up to individual major Powers to do the job as best they can, and the two Powers who should do it are Britain and the United States. We must do it in spite of the very silly campaign which is being waged against us by the Arabs. Britain and America—and both the Arabs and the Israelis know it—are the real friends of the Middle East. I say this because I believe that Britain and America have the reality of interest in the Middle East, both political and commercial, and they also have the reality of power in the Middle East.
There is much to do in the Middle East. There is the problem of the refugees, the perpetually evolving societies out there, and the lives of millions of delightful people. We must consider the peace not only of the Middle East, but of the whole world, which could be wrecked by an unsatisfactory solution in the Middle East.
I end by saying that I hope that the oil-rich Arabs and the Israelis will recognise this and that we shall now all get on with the job as soon as we can in the interests of world peace.

8.39 p.m.

Mr. Christopher Mayhew: I wish that I could follow the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) in his congratulations to the Government on their statement of policy. After all that has gone on in the Arab-Israeli war and the evidence of our helplessness during that period in spite of our military presence at Aden and in the Gulf, which gave us no real influence over events before, during, or after the war, I found my right hon. Friend's "business as usual" statement about our military policy and presence there extremely depressing.
I hope that, on further reflection, before the publication of the Defence White Paper in two or three weeks' time, he and the Government will come to realise, as the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) said, that the day really is over when Britain can play a traditional great Power rôle in the Middle East.
One of the lessons of the debate seems to be how hard it is to be objective about the Arab-Israel dispute. A number of hon. Members have declared their intention of being objective and have earnestly and honestly tried to be, but in the end they have presented the Arab-Israel struggle very much from the one point of view, the Israeli point of view.
I now propose to try to be objective myself. I believe that I have some special credentials for being neutral, because, on the one hand, there is in Israel, which I have visited several times, a grove of trees called the "Christopher Mayhew Grove". It was planted by a number of grateful members of the Jewish community in Britain in recognition of my sympathetic understanding of Judaism. On the other hand, after the war, for faithfully follow-

ing the Palestine policy of the Labour Government, I was actually sentenced to death by the Jewish terrorist organisation. I believe that the combination of these two entitles me to call myself neutral in the Arab-Israel struggle.
One of the things which I would like to say as an objective observer is that the Israeli case in this struggle has been presented in this country very much better than the Arab case. This afternoon, the Israeli case has been admirably presented by speaker after speaker. We see it in the Press and we see it in our post-bags and in meetings, and so on. By contrast, the Arabs' presentation of their case is deplorable. It is not simply that they do not have the same facilities, or the same experience, or the same number of dedicated spokesmen. It is, as they themselves will admit quite freely, that they are among the world's worst propagandists, and no one should question that.
This creates a considerable danger. It creates the danger of a one-sided presentation of the struggle in this country. If we are to make a constructive contribution to a settlement, it is essential that we understand the motives, feelings and reasoning of both sides in the struggle.
The Israeli case is easy to understand—a small country of 2½ million people, surrounded by larger countries, all bitterly hostile to Israel and all avowedly stating their aim to be the elimination of Israel. We recall the commando raids into Israel and the ejection of the U.N.E.F. from Egyptian territory and, finally, the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping and strategic goods. To many people the whole matter seems to be a black and white affair.
Yet, as the Foreign Secretary has said bravely and truly, the Arabs as well as the Israelis have a case. The truth is that the Arabs as well as the Israelis have a strong historic and moral claim to the territory of Israel. To the Jewish people the establishment of Israel seems a miraculous homecoming after two thousand years of dispersion and often oppression, a return to the land of their fathers and their holy places. It is a true picture, and a very moving one to anyone with a sense of history.
But what is so difficult to convey is that to the Arabs the establishment of the


State of Israel meant almost exactly the opposite—dispersion from the land of their fathers and their holy places, eviction from land which they were occupying and which they had occupied for longer than the Jews, eviction imposed by foreigners and at a time of great weakness to themselves, by the Americans, the British and the Zionists, eviction against their desperate opposition, often by force and sometimes by deceit. This, too, is true equally with the Israeli picture. That is a true statement of events. It must equally command sympathy by everyone whose mind is not totally closed and who is not totally prejudiced on this subject.
Talking about Arab refugees today is in some ways uncannily like talking to Zionists before the war. The sentiments and arguments are uncannily similar.
We are scattered today,
say the Arab refugees,
driven from our homeland. We are poor, we are oppressed, but the land in Palestine is our lands and we will return to it one day.
Sometimes in these Arab refugees camps one almost expects someone to say, amid these protests:
orget thee, 0 Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its cunning.
One almost expects an Arab to say that in an Arab refugee camp. There is a kind of Arab Zionism, uncannily like the Zionism of the Jews before the war. It is argued that history has moved on, it is 20 years now, and Israel has been established.
But when we remember that the Jews maintained their claim for this land for 2,000 years is it realistic to expect the Arabs to abandon their claim for the same land in 20 years? This is what they say, too, "Unlike the Jews during the dispersion we can actually see the promised land with our own eyes. Just over there is my farm, which I built up, and which is now being cultivated by a foreigner." It may be someone newly arrived from Europe or North Africa. It is not realistic to expect the Arabs to forget their claims so soon.
The sensible thing no doubt would be to recognise the facts of life, the facts of power, and to make the best of a bad job. I have told this to my Arab friends over and over again, to all the Arab leaders, including President Nasser. This

must be said by those who are the true friends of the Arabs because it is true.
Yet sometimes I wonder how we would react if we were in their position. Suppose that 2,000 years ago the Jewish people had lived not in Roman Palestine, but in Roman Britain, and that they had been dispersed not from Jerusalem, but from London. Imagine that many centuries later, at a time when Britain was extremely weak, the great Powers, for their own purposes, promised the Jewish people a return to Britain, and then encouraged, financed and armed a huge Jewish immigration into Britain, and, finally, pushed through a plan for partitioning Britain and recognising London and the Home Counties as a foreign State.
How would we react to that? How ready would we be to recognise this new foreign State, to write off London and southern England as a foreign country? What would we say to an army of English refugees, the Sussex farmers, the London busmen and their families? Would we say, "Oh, there is plenty of room in Australia and Canada."? I cannot promise that in such circumstances I would say that.
I cannot be sure that I would not say that for as long as I lived I would never reconcile myself to such a monstrous injustice. Of course it would be wrong to say that, and I agree with my hon. Friends who have argued this point. It would be right to compromise with the facts of power. But when we say this to our Arab friends, and it is our duty to do so, we ought to say it with considerable sympathy and understanding, recognising that if we were in their position maybe we would be incapable of doing the same thing ourselves.
We should also stop labelling the Arabs as the aggressors, as several of my hon. Friends have done. It is not true that either the Arabs or the Jews are the aggressors in this quarrel. It depends where in time one takes one's stand. If one takes one's stand on 5th June, the Israelis were the aggressors; but if one takes one's stand a fortnight earlier, at Aqaba, then the Egyptians were the aggressors. If we go back to 1949 and the Negev campaign, the Israelis were the aggressors. If we go back to 1947—the


Arab war—the Arabs were the aggressors. If we go back to before the war, I should say that the idea held by many Zionists that a Jewish State should be established in a predominantly Arab place was an aggressive idea.
The present generation of Jews and Arabs are neither the aggressors nor the victims of aggression. They are the victims of history. They are the victims of loyalties, passions and traditions which it is far beyond their capacity to control. We must, therefore, abandon this black and white attitude to the Arab-Israel struggle. Until we understand the feelings of both sides, which are equally understandable in human terms, I do not believe that we shall reach the right conclusion about what is needed for a settlement.
What is the problem of a settlement? What is the aim? Surely the aim must be to create conditions in which the Arabs can accept the existence of Israel without unbearable humiliation and loss of self-respect. That is the only way in which the Israelis will get security—acceptance by the Arabs. I understand the craving of the Jewish people for security. How could anybody who has any knowledge of history and any imagination fail to understand it? But it is a deadly error to think that security for Israel can be won by military power, by the expansion of frontiers, by weakening and dividing the Arab world. That can stave off danger, perhaps for some decades but nobody with a sense of history or an understanding of how States and nations behave in these circumstances can think that that policy will end in anything except ultimate disaster.
I wish that that point seemed to be better understood by the Israelis than it is. I find some of their actions and pronouncements since their victory profoundly disturbing. For example, the annexation of Jerusalem was a mistaken action, for which they have been condemned by 99 members of the United Nations without a dissenting voice. Some of their pronouncements about their territorial gains and about the Arab refugees are disturbing.
It is obvious that a settlement will be, unfortunately, a long time coming. But there is one task which will not wait for

a settlement but which will contribute greatly to it, and that is an all-out attack on the problem of the Arab refugees and not just the relief of the refugees. How depressing it is to see that U.N.R.W.A., which everyone agrees has done splendidly, has spent £200 million on these refugees in 19 years with nothing positive to show for it.
The aim must be resettlement. The larger part of the resettlement should be on Arab territory. But part of it must be in Israel, both on grounds of justice and as a means of conciliation and because they know the job and can do it well. The former security objection of the Israelis to having refugees back on their territory no longer holds—or, at any rate, not with anything like the same force. The existing Arab inhabitants of Israel were not a security problem during the war and they will not be now that the war is over.
Since 1948, the proportion of Arabs to Jews in Israel has fallen from about one-third to about one-fifth. In my view, there is room for a quarter of a million Arab refugees to return to their home ground in Israel.

Sir B. Janner: Does my hon. Friend expect a fifth column to be introduced into Israel at this stage?

Mr. Mayhew: I was explaining that during the war the Arab inhabitants of Israel did not present a security problem and that they are now less likely to present a security problem. But I concede that if the Israelis wish to give priority to the elderly refugees, that will be understandable. But even so a quarter of a million refugees would be a fair take for Israel in the present situation. I would give priority, also, to those refugees who have a registered claim to land and property in Israel. If they cannot get their own land and property back, they should get land and property of roughly equivalent value.
I ask some of my hon. Friends who have been speaking to remember that today the Israelis are enjoying the use of farms and houses, of private possessions, furniture and farm implements, which belong to the refugees and for which no compensation has been paid. Part of the solution of the problem, therefore, should be a quarter of a million refugees going


back, especially the elderly and those with registered claims, to Israel. For the rest, there should be resettlement predominantly in Arab territory under United Nations direction and with the generous support of the United States and Britain. and Israel at well.
Britain has contributed 500,000 dollars to U.N.R.W.A. as a special contribution. That is something, but it is not enough. It is too small. I agree that compared with other countries, our record is admirable, but I cannot help saying that, to their great credit, Israeli supporters in this country have already subscribed £6 million in voluntary contributions for Israel. I understand from my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this is being allowed across the exchanges. Aid to the Arab countries should be at least as much. hearing in mind the even greater need of the Arab refugees. Therefore, the sum of 500,000 dollars is too small in all the circumstances.
I must not continue too long. I simply wish to end by suggesting a start for a settlement. Everyone can see how long and difficult it will be—the difficulty for the Israelis to withdraw to their previous frontiers in advance of recognition, the difficulty for the Arab Governments of recognition in advance of withdrawal. This kind of problem is bound to hold up a settlement, but we can get started—it will contribute to the settlement eventually—on a positive effort to solve the problem of the refugees.
Let Britain, America and Israel take a lead, not as a matter of charity but as a plain moral obligation arising from their actions in the past. which, knowingly or unknowingly, have been the main cause of the Arab's desperate suffering and humiliation today.

8.57 p.m.

Sir Harry Legge-Bourke: I am glad that the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) finished his speech on the constructive note of what to do about the refugees. All of us who have attended this debate, and all who remember the earlier debates at the time of the British hand-over of the Mandate, are acutely aware that few things can have been more shaming than the events which have followed that disastrous day when U Thant decided to pull

out the peace-keeping force at the request of Egypt. I do not blame him for doing it. Constitutionally, in terms of the United Nations constitution and the pledges that were given, he was right to do it. He could do little else in the light of the undertakings which had been given.
Since then we have seen a betrayal, almost unrivalled in the history of the world, by the United Nations of the country which the United Nations created, a betrayal by this country whose giving up of the Mandate led inevitably to the State of Israel eventually being set up, and particularly a betrayal by a Labour Government who, in 1945, came into power on the policy of letting the Arabs move out and the Jews move in because it was absurd in a country the size of Wales that there should be two peoples.
Therefore, we gave up the Mandate and the United Nations took over the exercise for us and established the State of Israel. All those who were involved in those acts betrayed Israel in the last six weeks. It is a shaming chapter of history for all the people concerned. It ill becomes anybody in the course of the debate to lay down the law about what Israel should now do or what any of the other countries concerned should do. We ought to be thinking about what is in the interests of Britain. If we do not re-establish ourselves as pursuing a policy which is worthy of respect, we shall deserve to be condemned.
May I return to the speech of the hon. Member for Woolwich, East. I do not believe that the United Nations is the right body for this exercise. International liberals with pious impractical thoughts are almost more dangerous than out-and-out Communists. At least we know straight away what the Communists mean. The United Nations is the brain child of international liberalism. So many of the things of which the international liberals talk are obviously desirable. But what is pernicious is that, as Edmund Burke once said, all idealism which is impractical is also spurious. So much which has happened in the United Nations has proved to be spurious. So much of the idealism which led to the setting up of the State of Israel proved to be spurious when it came to the question whether they were prepared to defend what they had created. The United Nations is about the last body for us


now to call in to try to solve the problem for the future.
I was dismayed by what the Minister of State told us in opening the debate. It appears to me that the Government intend to pass the buck entirely to the United Nations. Of course, he said, we shall play our part in the various negotiations. But we all know well, whether it be about the future of the State of Israel or about dealing with the Arab refugees or about clearing the Suez Canal and keeping it open as a waterway, that unless somebody is prepared to take physical action all that will happen is that the fingers of the nations most concerned will be snapped in our faces and they will go on doing exactly as they like.
It ill becomes us now to tell Israel what to do. Although all my life I have been an opponent of political Zionism—and always shall be—Zionism without Zion is hardly likely to be satisfying to a true Zionist. I have always understood that argument. Now it has happened. Israel has her Zion, and if I were Israel I should not give Zion up. I should hope that by the way in which I administered the Zion that I had captured in the latest war I should win the respect of all religions. To ask the United Nations to sort this out is obscene.
Britain must work out for herself what is now in her own best interests. Let us recollect our enormous reliance on oil. We cannot avoid facing that if we want our economy to remain strong. It therefore seems to me that gradually we must pick up the pieces of those friendly parts of the Arab world and must show ourselves ready to recognise reality when we see it in Israel. We must try to bring the traditionally more friendly Arab States along with us again, with Israel coming with us, too. That is all that we can hope to do. How do we do it? Looking back at some of our old debates on the Middle East I came across these words:
… in addition to the rather natural desire of the Egyptians to try to remove us from the Canal Zone, I believe that they have had another reason for wanting us to go which we have ignored rather too much. I believe that that reason is that they want us to go so that they can, one day and in their own good time, try to redeem the shocking defeat which they had at the hands of the Israeli troops when we were setting up the State of Israel … Suppose that the Egyptian Government decided

to send their army into Israel. It is absolutely certain that the Kingdom of Jordan would have to come in with Egypt, if only to support her own interests. We should then he in a very unpleasant dilemma because, on the one hand, we are guaranteeing the frontiers of Israel jointly with other Powers, and, on the other, we have a treaty of alliance with Jordan. Therefore, if that situation should arise, we might find ourselves in the unfortunate position of either having to abandon Israel or break our treaty with Jordan, or sit on the fence. If we sit on the fence, then one thing is certain—we shall have a conflagration in the Middle East which will get out of control and which will result in a terrible loss of life. I doubt whether we should ever be able to control it by ourselves. Therefore, it seems that what we must avoid is any likelihood of the Egyptian Army ever again invading Israel".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 21st July, 1953; Vol. 518, c. 335.]
When I recently read that, I was not aware who had said it, and then I discovered that I had uttered those words myself in July, 1953. Now we have lived through it all, but it gives me no satisfaction to say that I visualised what would eventually take place. Yet what I said is still worth bearing in mind, for we must consider what we can do to prevent the likelihood of this state of affairs from happening again.
We must recognise dictators when we see them and be prepared to treat them accordingly. My guess is that dictator Nasser, which is what he is, will do his best to take his people's minds off their own plight. This is what dictators invariably do. When they get into difficulty in home affairs, they attempt to divert attention by doing something abroad. I do not know what Nasser is likely to do abroad. Maybe he will try to do something even worse than he is already doing in the Yemen. If he does anything like that, or something equally bad, we must be more robust. We must come out forcefully and show the Arab world that we will not allow Egypt to get away with the sort of things it has been allowed to get away with in the past, probably because we thought that it would alieniate the Arabs if they were not allowed to get away with them.
In any event, I do not believe that Egypt is an Arab country in the true sense of the phrase. It is a conglomeration of all sorts of peoples. On the other hand, we have many Arab friends and I hope that we will be compassionate towards Jordan. We must realise the appalling predicament in which poor King Hussein finds himself, with Nasser


trying to lead the Arab world. Jordan is probably the first Arab country to try to get together with Israel. We could help, and it is in our interests to help. We must try to pick up the bits; and perhaps the Arab refugees can be the beginning of this exercise. Jordan has always shown more care and concern for these refugees than any other Arab country. I hope that we will show that we, too, mean business.
The Minister of State said earlier—and I admit that he had every right to say it—that we have done more than any other country, other than the United States, for the Arab refugees. I trust that he is aware that we can be too complacent about what we have done. As the hon. Member for Woolwich, East said, when one compares the sum which Jewish sympathisers in this country have subscribed to Israel with what we have done for the Arab refugees, our effort does not show up particularly well.
My position in this matter is exactly as stated by Mr. Kenneth Younger when occupying the Minister of State's present office in 1951:
His Majesty's Government believe … that it is in the interests of the refugees themselves that the majority of them should, without prejudice to … their right to receive compensation, settle among their brethren in Arab countries." — [OFFICIAL REPORT, 23rd April, 1951; Vol. 487, c. 30.]
That is where I stand.
They should have the right to compensation and they should be able to go back to their former holdings, but I hope that now we can, with the help of Jordan and of Israel herself, gradually instil in the minds of both Israelis and Arabs that we wish to be friends with both; that there is nothing that need conflict in that, but that we regard it as a separate responsibility, and do not believe that the United Nations, bearing in mind its appalling record in this matter in the past, is the best body to promote this exercise, and think that this should be the proper concern of those whose interests are most involved.
Why are our interests involved? It is principally because of the geographical position of the United Kingdom and that junction of Africa and Asia which is Egypt. No one would particularly relish having to live in the Back Garden

of Allah, the Sinai Peninsula. Whether the frontier will finish up on one side or the other, or whether there will be an international zone, I do not know. But those things are less important than the geographical fact that this country, because of its geographical position in relation to the Euro-Asian land mass, cannot afford to ignore that link between Africa and Asia that is represented by Egypt.
So, because of our reliance on oil, and our geographical position, we are inevitably involved, and involved, perhaps, more than any other country, but any European country must have interests there, too. I believe that my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) was right in saying earlier in the debate that perhaps there is a real need for a joint European exercise.
If we can approach the matter in this manner, show compassion to those Arabs who could not help themselves in what Nasser made them do, and not start pontificating impracticably in the United Nations about what Israel should now do, there is a real chance that we can pick up the bits again, and so do something, not only in our own interests but in the interests of the peace of the world.

9.13 p.m.

Mr. Reginald Maudling: This is not an occasion on which the House is divided on party lines and, of course, there is not to be a Division. It was apparent early on, from the distinguished speech with which my right hon. Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) started the debate and the response from the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of State, that there is a great identity of views between the two Front Benches on the problems we are now facing.
That is at it should be. It is good that there should not be major differences between the two Front Benches in winding up this important debate. But that is not to say that there are not wide differences of views within the House, of which great evidence has been given in this debate in a number of distinguished speeches from back bench Members—speeches distinguished by their sincerity, their experience and, in some cases, their passion.
It is right, as the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) said, that in these matters it is very important, first of all, not to appear to be taking sides, as it were, in a partisan way, and certainly not to rake up embers of the past if one can possibly avoid doing so. These are circumstances in which we must be cool-headed as well as emotional, in which we must look at the present as well as the future, and in which it remains very much the responsibility of the Government to take a cool and balanced view of a highly dangerous situation.
This situation is, of course, highly complicated for this country. We have all the problems connected with withdrawing colonial or protectorate status from countries for which we still have certain defence responsibilities—as in the Trucial States, where we have still a very solemn and definite defence responsibility. We have the natural problems relating to countries that are becoming independent but which still need to lean on someone in the world and cannot yet entirely rely on their own strength.
These problems are made the more complicated by the special difficulties of the Middle East area; the extraordinary vagaries of wealth, the extraordinary contrast between oil-rich countries and their neighbours still living in complete impoverishment. I am surprised that the invasion of the transistor radio has not been mentioned much today. It always surprises me when I visit the Middle East to find how many people living on the verge of indigence can listen to transistor radios—and listen, I am afraid, most often to Cairo Radio.
One recognises the enormous efforts which King Feisal is making in Saudi Arabia to take his people out of the middle ages into the modern world in one generation. All these things put great strains of a unique character on the Governments concerned. The present situation is complicated by the various disputes taking place in that area—the dispute between Israelis and Arabs, disputes within the Arab world, and disputes between the great Powers which leave their mark only too obviously on the Middle Eastern areas.
We have heard much from both sides of the House this afternoon about the

dispute between Israel and the Arab States. Most of us would feel that there is a case for both sides in this dispute. One cannot help feeling deeply impressed by the arguments of the Israelis that they are and have been threatened with complete destruction. The hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heller) quoted some of the propaganda in this dispute. There is deep human feeling which we must recognise. But equally, as the hon. Member for Woolwich, East said, there is genuine feeling—I have met it myself on many occasions among Arabs, particularly Palestinian Arabs—that their land has been taken from them and they can see that land being tilled by alien people. These are real feelings which we cannot ignore.
It is sometimes argued that the plight of the refugees has been exploited for political purposes. I do not know how true that is, but, whether or not that is true, their plight still exists and is a major factor in the Middle East situation. Then there is the complication of quarrels within the Middle Eastern world, the various conflicting claims to territories and power disputes, and the fighting which has been going on for years in the Yemen.
Finally, there are the activities of the external Powers, particularly of the Soviet Union. It is recognisable and understandable that they should seek to expand their influence in the Middle East, but I am surprised in view of the nature of the present régime at the alacrity with which they appeared to seize on this particular war in the Middle East from the very start and how little, apparently, they weighed in the balance the true merits of the situation or the true arguments on the sides of the two parties then locked in hostilities.
I am afraid one cannot help feeling that the policy of France has not been helpful in this situation. There are many people, not in one country alone, who feel that the policy of the French at the moment seems to be rather in the interests of their own country than in the interests of finding a solution in the general interests of this part of the world. We find many different conflicting influences and cross currents throughout the


whole Middle East, the Israeli-Arab conflict, and the struggle for the leadership of the Arab world—which, I believe, has underlain much that has happened—and, finally, the influence of the great Powers themselves.
In these circumstances. I believe our objectives as a country should be threefold. First, without doubt, we should honour our obligations—they still remain —in the Trucial States, in the Gulf and elsewhere, obligations which we must honour even at the cost, if necessary, of maintaining substantial Forces in that area. I was glad to hear the Minister of State this afternoon re-emphasising that the British Government do not intend in any way to abandon their responsibilities and obligations in that area.
Secondly, we must be determined to maintain our friendships—which, I am quite certain, over the span of history have been traditional friendships—both with the Israeli people and with the Arab people. So many distinguished Britishers over so many years have known, understood and worked with Jews and Arabs alike. We must not let this be torn apart and lost.
Finally, we must also protect our economic interests. It is not right to ignore them. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) was right when he pointed out how large are the issues seen from the point of view of Britain's economy and therefore of her ability to play an effective part in world affairs and an effective rôle in sustaining aid to countries in the Middle East and elsewhere which need our help.
These are our objectives. Now for our methods. I am sure, as I have said before, that this is fundamental; we must at all costs try to avoid giving the appearance of being either anti-Israel or anti-Arab. This is fundamentally difficult. For instance, in the dispute between India and Pakistan, in trying to be neutral one often found that one was taken to be hostile to both sides. We must try very hard to avoid this.
The right hon. Gentleman made a speech at the United Nations about Jerusalem, and I agree with him. What he said was absolutely right. Despite what has been said in this debate by many hon. Members, it would be in the fundamental interests of Israel to fall in line with

world opinion in this matter. I have no doubt that it would be a tremendous sacrifice and effort for them, but it would in the long term be in their own interests because their own interests are to have a situation which is secure and permanent. In those circumstances, one could not establish something which would be secure and permanent against the determination of the Arabs and against the disagreement of pretty well the entire membership of the United Nations.
While I agree with the Foreign Secretary on the line that he was taking in this matter, it is a fact which cannot be ignored that the impression given by his speech, for example in the American Press, which I read, because I was there, was quite definitely anti-Israeli—as carried through the Press, which is one example of how easy it is to be misunderstood in these matters.
Taking the other side of the argument, we must do more and more to make it clear that when we criticise the policy of Nasserite Egypt we are not attacking the Arab world as a whole. I was surprised the other day, talking to a distinguished ambassador in this country, when he said that this had not yet been made fully clear. I would have thought it was absolutely clear. We have our friendships with many Arab countries still, as the Minister of State rightly said, sustained on a personal as well as an official basis, despite some of the difficulties of recent weeks. We have these traditional friendships. But we cannot, as a price of that, accept the argument that if one wants to be a friend of the Arabs one must support everything that the Nasser Government does. This is not tolerable or sustainable.
We cannot support the activities of Cairo Radio. We cannot support the activities of Colonel Nasser's forces in the Yemen, including the use of poison gas, to which my right hon. Friend rightly referred this afternoon. This is the sort of thing we must continue to condemn in the name of all humanity, including the Arabs themselves. There is nothing anti-Arab in taking that line. We must get this across in every possible way.
It has been the policy of Egypt to be the main base of any Russian military influence in the Middle East. It has been the policy of Egypt to expand her influence in the Yemen. It is the policy


of Egypt to try to expand her influence through Aden, round Saudi Arabia and generally to subvert the whole of the Arab world. It was the policy of Egypt to close the Gulf of Aqaba, or the Straits of Tiran. It was Egypt who took the lead in declaring the determination to destroy the Israeli State.
Therefore, I say that we must make it clear that our quarrel is not with the Egyptian people or with the Arab people in any way at all. The last thing we want to do is to quarrel with those people. Our objection is solely to the policies of the present Egyptian Government which have created so much damage for the whole of the Middle East, including, I believe, the Egyptian people themselves. If we can get this distinction quite clear, I believe that our position in the Arab world will be stronger and that good will flow to both sides as a result.
I am sure that as one of our methods we must avoid the appearance of appeasing our enemies and deserting our friends. Too often recently this has happened. I recall being in that part of the world when the Government made their announcement about the withdrawal of British forces from Aden. There can be no doubt that the effect of that announcement was to give encouragement to those hostile to Britain and discouragement to those who are our friends. I am certain that a real chance of Egyptian withdrawal from the Yemen was frustrated and the whole policy of Nasserite Egypt was changed by that announcement on the part of Her Majesty's Government.
Finally, on method, we must work with friendly Powers and with the United Nations in every possible way. The United Nations has been referred to often today, and there is, I think, some disagreement about how or in what shape the United Nations has emerged from the recent debate. I believe that it has strengthened the United Nations. It is true that no final or firm conclusion has been reached and no individual resolution has achieved a majority, but, on the other hand, discussion and voting in the United Nations on this occasion has gone more on the basis of the merits of the case and less on the basis of prior commitment, as has happened often in recent years. I can, therefore, see reason for encouragement in what has happened there.
Now, the question of what action we should take. As I have said, we must maintain our presence in the area. It is not only a matter of the obligations which we have to maintain. It is also true—this reflects what the Minister of State said—that our withdrawal and the creation of a power vacuum there would lead to more and greater dangers in the Middle East.
I am certain, also, that we must maintain our position in Aden, at least to the extent which the Government have already made clear. I press the Foreign Secretary again a little to clarify the situation in Aden at present. Will he confirm the authority given to our troops to use what weapons are necessary for the purposes of security? Will he confirm the determination to collect the arms which are scattered around Aden at the moment? Can he say what is the source of these arms, by what means and whence they are coming in, and in what quantity? Above all, will he confirm that the continuing presence of British forces in the area after the independence of South Arabia will not be limited to an arbitrary period of six months but will be continued so long as is necessary to maintain the position, in particular, until South Arabia becomes a member of the United Nations?
Now, the question of Israel and how we can act to be of assistance in the present situation. As I have said, I consider that the Foreign Secretary was quite right to say that the purpose of war should not be territorial aggrandisement. Equally, it is absolutely clear that no one can ask the Israelis to withdraw from the positions which they have occupied by force of arms until they are given some form of security for the future. I am certain that, in the classical phrase, they have no territorial ambitions—none at all. Their ambition, surely, is security. They are entitled to the security for which they have asked and for which they have fought.
I agree with the Government, therefore, in maintaining the view that any withdrawal should be accompanied by the condition that alternative means should be found to provide Israel with the security she requires. Many hon. Members have said that the right way to go about this is direct talks between Israel and the Arab countries. I agree


that this is true in logic. That should be the way. They should sit down and talk to one another about the future. I do not believe that at the moment they can. No leading Arab statesman could, in practical terms, sit down at the moment and talk with the Israeli Government in that sense.
That being so, as the obviously ideal course is not available, we must find an alternative. It is right to pursue the idea of a United Nations mediator. I cannot see any other source from which one could obtain a suitable person to act as mediator between the two sides. We welcome the Government's support for this idea, and we hope that they are successful in pushing it forward.
I make one further suggestion which, I hope, will be of use, and I should like to have the Foreign Secretary's comments on it. Much has been said, rightly, about the settlement of refugees and finding an imaginative way of dealing with the problem—not just giving out continued hunger rations, but finding a way of giving them a real opportunity of looking forward to a growing economic strength of their own and growing society of their own. My right hon. Friend referred to the suggestions in the newspapers about coupling desalinisation with atomic power, and I think that those suggestions are very valuable.
I believe that the right organisation to push this through is the World Bank, which I believe has a very exceptional position being not purely an Anglo-Saxon organisation. I think that I am right in saying that it is subscribed to by pretty well all the independent countries of the Middle East. It did a very fine job in the Indus water dispute and it is in a special position by reason not only of the finance at its command but its economic and engineering expertise and the political experience which Mr. George Woods and others have accumulated over many years.
When I was in Washington a couple of weeks ago I discussed the idea with Mr. Woods, the President of the Bank, and other people there. I am confident that the idea would be acceptable to it in principle and that if a scheme could be worked out the Bank could take the lead in a really great international effort. I hope that most if not all members of the Bank would contribute to solve on an

imaginative basis the problem of the refugees in that part of the world, and that the Foreign Secretary will be kind enough to consider that as a possibility.
Of course, the greatest political problem will be the provision of adequate guarantees for Israeli security. We do not quite know what guarantees Israel could rely on. I do not think, obviously, that she will be prepared to rely on guarantees from the Egyptians. Guarantees from the two great super-Powers, as I think my right hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) suggested, might be a way of providing some stability and security in the area, but I suspect that experience has left the Israelis rather sceptical about the value of great Power guarantees.
There remain two things—the United Nations and the holding of territory. I believe that it would be right to concentrate on finding some way of providing through the United Nations probably—and I think preferably—by the physical presence of a United Nations force at strategic points, a guarantee of a lasting kind which would really give some confidence to the Israelis. Perhaps they would feel that this should be accompanied by the retention of certain parts of the territory they have occupied on purely strategic grounds. I do not see anything objectionable in considering as part of a settlement some adjustments to the frontiers so long as they are solely designed for the purposes of sustaining security in the future. I hope that discussion will proceed on these lines, and we all hope that the Government will be successful in bringing to this area the peace its people desire and restoring within the area the relations we have had with them over so many years, and which should so much be cherished.
I conclude by reminding the House of the theme of Winston Churcill's great works, which is appropriate at the present moment. It is:

"In War, Resolution:
In Defeat, Defiance;
In Victory, Magnanimity;
In Peace, Good will."

At the moment the Arabs, defeated, are naturally defiant. I believe that in victory the Israelis are, and I hope that they will continue to be, magnanimous. What both


sides must remember is that in peace the watchword is, "good will".

Sir John Rodgers: Would my right hon. Friend clarify one point on the future on Jerusalem? He said, quite rightly, that the Israelis should pay due regard to world opinion on the future of the city. But I should like him to make it clear that he is not on any account advocating the continuation of a divided Jerusalem, any more than he would tolerate a divided Berlin.

Mr. Maudling: Certainly.

9.34 p.m.

The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. George Brown): We have had a very quiet and, I think, constructive debate. I hope that my response will be in the same mood. I was very grateful to the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) for the kind words with which he opened the debate.
The right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) said—rather, I do not think that he quite said it, but it amounted to this—that there was almost a unanimity of view between the two Front Benches. I have listened to much of the debate, and I have realised that there is one real division. We might as well recognise it. It is fundamental and important. Not one spokesman on the Opposition side of the House has managed to refer to "President Nasser". The most polite called him "Colonel Nasser"; the least polite called him "Dictator Nasser"—

Mr. Blaker: On a point of order—

Mr. Brown: But I have not started yet.

Mr. Blaker: On a point of order—

Mr. Brown: At least let me get started. If I have made a mistake, if somebody described him as "President Nasser" when I was not here, I will withdraw, but while I have been in the Chamber no one has. [Interruption.] I think that this is important. The most impolite have called him "Dictator Nasser" and the most polite have called him "Colonel Nasser". Others have just said "Nasser".
I really think that here there is a great difference between us which the other

side of the House ought to face up to. President Nasser is the President of his country. Whether we agree or disagree with his policies is another matter. We do not achieve anything by being rude in this way to the leaders of other countries whose only—

Hon. Members: Absolute nonsense.

Mr. Blaker: Is the right hon. Gentleman absolutely confident of his ground. I do not believe that he was here right through the debate, but it is my distinct recollection that I myself referred more than once to "President Nasser".

Mr. Brown: I am sorry, but two of us sitting on the Government Front Bench were certainly here during the hon. Gentleman's speech and neither of us thinks we heard him say it. If I am wrong about it, that is all right.

Mr. Sandys: Has the right hon. Gentleman never talked about "General de Gaulle"?

Mr. Brown: There is an important factor here. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have never got Suez out of their souls. It is very important if we are to discuss the events of today in the constructive sense in which people have tried to do it that we look for the solutions without being too involved in the events of the past. This is tremendously important. Whether President Nasser will remain President of Egypt is something I cannot pronounce upon, but so long as he is there the Government of this country, the Government of Israel and the Governments of other countries have to deal with him. I do not think that we are helping towards a solution of the problem by dealing with it as hon. and right hon. Gentleman opposite did.
There is a second thing that I should like to say before I start on the issues that were raised. References were made by the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire and other hon. Members to the Jordanian attitude. The right hon. Gentleman paid a tribute to the Jordanian Prime Minister's speech, and others have done so to the speeches and attitude of King Hussein. Here again, I advise the House that we ought to be very careful about drawing a distinction between a leader whom we do not like and a leader whom we do like. Nothing could do the latter more


harm or the former more good or mess up all that we want to achieve more easily. Hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite must permit me to say that they have fallen into that trap a bit today.

Mr. Sandys: Claptrap.

Mr. Brown: Before I come back, as I should like to at the end, to the major issue of Israel and the Arab dispute, I should like to deal with some of the other questions that I was asked. I thought that it would be useful if I started with South Arabia. I was asked about the internationalisation of the Island of Perim. In the last debate I undertook, under great pressure from right hon. and hon. Members opposite, to make every endeavour to secure the internationalisation of Perim under the auspices of the United Nations. I said that I would discuss it with the South Arabian authorities and with the United Nations.
The right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) today drew our attention to the fact that the present Federal Government of South Arabia have declared their opposition to the proposal on the ground that Perim is
…an inseparable part of South Arabia".
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that this is not, in fact, the present constitutional position. Perim is a separate Colony, but, as I have said, and it must remain so, the whole thing must be discussed with those concerned and I am in touch with the Federal Government and the United Nations on this. I cannot go beyond that at this moment.
I was also asked by the right hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members questions concerning F.L.O.S.Y., the N.L.F., and the widening of the basis of the Government of South Arabia. As the House knows, F.L.O.S.Y. has never been proscribed and, therefore, it enjoys a legal existence in South Arabia. We have lifted the proscription on the N.L.F., which means that it is no longer an offence to be a member of that organisation. That is the only change.
Committing an offence against the law remains an offence whether the perpetrator is a member of F.L.O.S.Y., the N.L.F. or any other organisation. It is not for me to say whether any member of F.L.O.S.Y. or the N.L.F. who has committed a terrorist offence will be

invited to join the Government in South Arabia. On the other hand, it is absolutely certain that the Government in South Arabia must be widened.
The right hon. Member for Streatham will know that it is not Her Majesty's Government but the member States of the Federation who select the Federal Government under the present conditions. Her Majesty's Government's only voice is in speaking for the Government of Aden State in the absence of an elected Government there. In the case of a caretaker Government to be formed under the new Constitution, the choice of Ministers will lie with the South Arabians themselves and not with Her Majesty's Government.

Mr. Sandys: Can the right hon. Gentleman clear up one point about the position of the N.L.F. and F.L.O.S.Y.? They have been engaged in open rebellion against the Government of the country and have committed acts of violence in which people have been killed. Can I take it that every effort will be made to try to arrest the people who have been concerned and bring them to justice and that for the sake of some negotiations going on these people are not to be treated differently from other ordinary wrongdoers?

Mr. Brown: Where people are presumed to be guilty of terrorist, murderous or other offences they should be brought to justice. On the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman knows that he and his fellow Ministers of the last Conservative Government did not proscribe F.L.O.S.Y. and that it never has been proscribed. He knows as well as I do that a wider Government than the present one is essential. He knows something about the steps that are now going on in which the present Federal Ministers have designated one of their number to act as Prime Minister and to form a new Government in accordance with the Constitution.
That Government will have little authority unless it is much broader-based than the present Federal Council and these steps will involve bringing members of other organisations into the Government. I see no way out of that.

Mr. Tom Driberg: In view of the great importance of the Minister


of State's announcement that Mr. Makawee is in New York, can my right hon. Friend say whether he is definitely seeing, or has yet seen, Lord Caradon, and, also, whether Mr. Al Asnag is also in New York, since these two extremely able and intelligent resistance leaders are obviously going to be the leading members of the future Government of South Arabia?

Mr. Brown: I have no knowledge whether Mr. Al Asnag is in New York. I do know that Mr. Makawee is in New York. I received a message a short while ago that he is seeing the Chairman of the United Nations Mission. To the best of my information, he has not up till now seen Lord Caradon, but that does not rule out the fact that they may be going to meet.
The suggestion was also made that the new Government should include a prominent army officer of the Federal forces. This is a matter for the South Arabians themselves, and, given the situation, I would be a wee bit chary about my expressing any view whether that would be a good thing or not.
The point was made that we should do everything we can to persuade the States of the East Aden Protectorate to join in the Federation. We have done our best by consistently giving advice and making it clear that all our military and civil aid will go to the central and not the regional governments to encourage them to do so. So far, inertia, fear of involvement, and uncertainty about the future have prevented progress. I do not believe that we can just impose unity. This is something that one has to encourage and bring about in that way.
I was very glad that the right hon. Gentleman paid the tributes that he did to the High Commissioner, Sir Humphrey Trevelyan, who is oviously bringing very great qualities to bear in a difficult situation, and may well be edging his way through.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Streatham and the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison)—there may have been others—raised the question of the use of gas in Yemen.

Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Will the right hon. Gentleman say categorically that neither Her Majesty's Government nor the High Commissioner in Aden are requir-

ing the present Federal Ministers to resign before a caretaker Government is formed?

Mr. Brown: How the present Federal Ministers, as it were, phase into the new caretaker Government will require a good deal of careful handling. It is neither possible to say that one resigns before the other is formed, nor yet to say that one does not resign until the other is formed. There will have to be a phasing in, as the right hon. Gentleman will know from his own experience.
Mr. Bayoumi has now been charged with the job of forming a new Government. Obviously, if new Ministers are to come in and there is to be a wider Government there will come a point at which there will be a phasing of the one into the other. I think that this is how it will be done sensibly. I do not think there is any difference between us.
I was coming to the question of the use of gas in the Yemen. The question I was asked by the Leader of the Opposition on 19th June was whether I would consider a resolution by the British Government to deal with this at the United Nations or in some other form. It seemed to me then and still seems to me that the killing anti maiming of Arabs by Arabs in this way is a matter for the Arabs themselves to raise in the United Nations in the first place.
I do not wash my hands of what is happening. I condemn the U.A.R. for the action of using poison gas in this way. I believe that they stand condemned before the whole world. It is not for me or for this country to raise in the United Nations what is, in effect and in fact, an offence against another country. It is for that country to raise it and then for us to take our stand on the issue when it is raised. I think we will be wise to take this particular line.

Mr. Sandys: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the Government against which this offence is being committed, which is the legal Government of the Yemen and recognised by the British Government, is not represented in the United Nations? As one of the Governments which recognise the Royal Government of the Yemen, is it not the duty of the British Government to raise this matter at the United Nations?

Mr. Brown: Frankly, I do not see it as the duty of the British Government.
The Saudi Arabians themselves have been affected by this and the Saudi Arabian Government, who have been very busy condemning us in another respect, might decide that they wish to raise this. I do not believe it to be the business of the British Government actually to raise it, but that is quite distinct from the stand which we would take were it to be raised.

Mr. Biggs-Davison: Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that when Mussolini used poison gas against the Abyssinians that was a matter purely for the Abyssinians and not for the whole of the outraged world?

Mr. Brown: It may well be a matter for the whole of the outraged world. I am saying that it would not be wise for us at the moment to take it upon ourselves to raise it. If it were to be raised by those most nearly affected, then, of course, it would be for us to decide whether to declare ourselves, and we would declare ourselves rather better than the Conservative Government did at the time of Abyssinia; but I do not believe that it is for us to raise the issue.
I was asked about the state of the Suez Canal. The right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire said that someone had told him that it was not blocked. I do not think that there is any doubt about our information being right. It is blocked partially or wholly between Port Said and Ismailia. It is also blocked to the South of Ismailia and it is also obstructed between the Great Bitter Lake and Suez.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned proceedings in the International Court with a view to getting the canal open. I do not think that that would help very much. There are a number of complex legal arguments and that way would probably not succeed. In any case, I think that the right answer is by way of political rather than legal action. We are keeping in touch with other Governments who are concerned with the waterway as an international waterway and we are doing our best to get it opened as soon as we can. Several hon. Members have mentioned our policy of the supply of arms to the Middle East. I agree with those who have said that it is important to avoid a new arms race. For this we need agreement among the countries which

are supplying arms to the Middle East. As my right hon. Friend said, new supplies of Soviet arms are already arriving in Egypt and in other countries. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about them pouring in, but I would not use those words. We think that the motives of the Russians at this stage are more likely to be diplomatic than military and we do not, therefore, despair of eventually reaching agreement in this matter.
When the fighting started, we imposed a unilateral suspension of supply and we tried to get others to follow suit. But we were unsuccessful in achieving that and we did not think that we could maintain a unilateral ban indefinitely. I do not believe that in this matter we can act alone, for reasons which the whole House will easily take on board. Our firm intention is to work for an international agreement in this respect, and that is what we are doing.
I now turn to what I believe to be the most constructive thing to have come out of the debate. The right hon. Member for Barnet spent a great deal of time on it, I am glad to say. This is a tragic aspect of the situation, an aspect on which it is surely possible to get something done, the aspect of the refugees in the area. Like the right hon. Gentleman and others, I visited the refugee camps before the recent outbreak, and saw the plight of the refugees. It is absolutely deplorable that, nearly 20 years after they originally left their homes, more than 1 million of these people are still living on international charity. I agree wholeheartedly with the right hon. Gentleman when he said that just doling out aid was no answer to this problem.
We have now added a new dimension to this with the flight across the Jordan of 150,000 west bank Arabs. I tried hard to persuade the Israeli Government to discourage the flow and to welcome these people back. I am very glad that this has been done, and I hope that it will lead to a substantial reduction in the numbers on the other side of the river.
I agree that we really must deal with this in a much bigger and much more imaginative way. We have given a lot of money and help through U.N.R.W.A. and other ways. What we really want here is an imaginative scheme for the


relief of that area. We need roads, hospitals, schools, houses, and we need water so as to bring areas under cultivation. It is an absolute requirement that the international community should be engaging in a massive co-operative effort to develop the region. If we do that, then we really could solve this problem. If there were such an effort made whether by the World Bank, as the right hon. Gentleman suggested, or through some other agency, either existing or which we set up, then I believe that this is the time for it, and Her Majesty's Government would be willing to play their part in it and contribute towards it.
The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire drew attention to the letter from Mr. de Rothschild about the need for desalination plants so that we could provide the essential missing resources. This may well be the right solution. We would certainly encourage it very much, because this would get us over probably the most difficult hurdle. I join with those who have spoken before me in saying that this is no longer a question of money of aid or charity. It must be a question of the resettlement of those people in real dignity, able to earn their living in that region, and the final removal of this particular problem.
I would like to say a word about New York and the United Nations. The resolutions, as the House will know, were not carried in the end, and the Assembly has now adjourned for a short period to see whether it is possible to reach a measure of agreement about the future.
A good deal of serious and constructive work has been done. I would like here to second what my right hon. Friend said at the beginning of the debate. There was a great change in the atmosphere at the beginning of the debate, compared with that at the end. As the right hon. Gentleman said, what Russia appeared to have set out to get, at the end of the day she

simply had not got. The urgent matter now is that the Secretary-General should send his representative there, that we should see what kind of United Nations force we can get in the disputed area so that we can get, at any rate, a partial withdrawal and accompany this with the ending of belligerency, and thereby the acceptance of the existence of the various States.
In the case of Jerusalem, we have played a considerable part in avoiding actual formal annexation of the city. That was the right thing for us to do, and we must now work to see that this does not happen again, unless we take into account all the factors that make up for a final settlement.
There is no doubt that a final settlement must be found within United Nations framework. The withdrawal of Israeli forces will have to be part of this, but the ending of belligerency must also be part of it. The right of all States to exist must be a part of it, free and innocent passage through the waterways must be part of it, and the ending of the present arms race must also be included. This is the basis for the settlement for which we are looking, the basis of the settlement which I gather, at the end of the debate everyone would like.

Rear-Admiral Morgan Giles: The right hon. Gentleman promised to tell the House about the "active service" conditions of British troops in Aden and their widows' pensions.

It being Ten o'clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed without Question put.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Ordered,
That the Proceedings on the Control of Liquid Fuel Bill and on the Bermuda Constitution Bill may be entered upon and proceeded with at this day's Sitting at any hour, though opposed.—[Mr. Ioan L. Evans.]

CONTROL OF LIQUID FUEL BILL

Order for Second Reading read.

10.2 p.m.

The Minister of Power (Mr. Richard Marsh): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
This is a very short enabling Bill, but I think that it is probably of some interest to the House.
The purpose of the Bill is to give the Government temporary powers to enable them, should they so decide, to control the supply, acquisition and consumption of liquid fuel in this country. These powers are being taken only in case a situation arises as a result of which we need to use them. I emphasise that it is not my intention to do so at present, although I am taking all appropriate preparatory measures on the principle that it is better to prepare for an emergency that never occurs than to be caught unprepared should one develop.
Hon. Members are aware that there is an enormous amount of work going on at present, both by the Government and the oil companies, to minimise the effects of the Middle East crisis. These steps should ensure that if the flaw of oil cannot be fully restored in the near future the resultant shortfall will be reduced as far as possible. We have adequate stocks at present, since commercial stocks, for a long time before this crisis, have been maintained at a very high level and the Government—although I am not open to any questions on this—also maintain their own stocks.
Therefore, although there is no immediate cause for alarm, some damage to our stock position is somewhat unavoidable, and in my view, and probably in the view of hon. Members on both sides of the House, it would be irresponsible not to take steps to guard against this possibility. It is for this reason, and to ensure fairness in the distribution of oil if the supply becomes short, that the Government need the powers in the Bill. At present, we have no such powers.
When petrol rationing and other restrictions on oil use were required during the Suez crisis the Government were able to act under the Defence Regulations. Those Regulations have long since been

revoked. There are no similar standing powers which have taken their place. Given that there would probably be agreement on the principle, the only alternative to the Bill would be to resort to emergency powers under the Emergency Powers Act, 1920. In my view, this would be highly inappropriate and extraordinarily inconvenient. It would require the proclamation of an emergency and the powers would have to be renewed by the recall of Parliament in August, September and October—a course of action which it seemed to me would possibly be unpopular on both sides of the House.
It therefore seemed that a Bill of this type was the simplest and most effective means to provide a statutory basis for the operation of petrol rationing and other restrictions, if occasion requires, in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I think that it is important to get it clear that the Bill does not of itself impose any restrictions whatsoever. It is an enabling Bill and simply enables me as Minister of Power to do so by means of Orders regulating or prohibiting the supply, acquisition and consumption of liquid fuel. These Orders may relate to liquid fuel generally or to particular liquid fuels, and to their use for all purposes or for particular purposes.
The Bill also enables me to give directions to refiners or suppliers of liquid fuel about the persons whom they may or may not supply; and it stipulates that liquid fuel supplied under a direction, and only under a direction, must be sold at a reasonable price. It may be necessary to require undertakings to keep records or to furnish information connected with their use of liquid fuel. The Bill empowers me to give directions or make Orders or serve notices for this purpose. If motor fuel, motor spirit and derv needed to be rationed, it would obviously be desirable to ensure the most efficient use of the available goods vehicles. The Bill accordingly empowers the Minister of Transport to relax certain restrictions under the Road Traffic Act, 1960, on the carriage of goods for hire or reward or for own account in the event of rationing.
It is necessary for the Bill to provide for the following matters: a Parliamentary procedure for the handling of Orders made under the Bill; the service


of notices and other documents; the persons to whom the Bill applies; the making of full statements and the furnishing of false documents to be an offence; officers of corporations to be guilty of offences where the corporation has committed an offence with their consent or because of their interest; and duly authorised Government officials to be empowered to require undertakings to produce documents and, in certain circumstances, to obtain a warrant authorising the entry and search of premises.
All these matters are dealt with by applying the relevant provisions of the Emergency Laws (Re-Enactments and Repeals) Act, 1964. Contraventions of Orders, directions or requirements under the Bill and obstruction of persons exercising powers under it will be offences, as will be attempts and acts preparatory to the commission of offences. The penalty for any offence will be up to three months' imprisonment or a fine of £100 or both.
The Bill provides specifically for the reimbursement of expenditure which would be incurred by the Postmaster-General and the local authorities in the event of petrol rationing. It is intended that the basic ration books should, as was done at the time of Suez, be issued by post offices and by local taxation officers. Under the Bill, I would be responsible for the costs of the former and the Minister of Transport for those of the latter. Subject to that, it is proposed that expenditure by Government Departments would be met from moneys provided by Parliament.
It is not possible at this stage to make a worth-while estimate of the expenditure which is likely to be incurred under the Bill. Obviously, the whole of the expenditure would depend upon whether and for how long petrol rationing is needed. Petrol rationing cannot be operated without large numbers of staff. It is worth saying on the question of large numbers of staff that at the time of Suez, with 4 million cars on the road, we needed to recruit 1,800 staff to operate the scheme. Today there are on the road, not 4 million cars, but 10 million. There is, however, no evidence that the increase in the staff needed to operate the scheme would be in direct arithmetical ratio. The total

of the expenditure would, therefore, depend upon whether rationing was necessary and, if it were, for how long it continued.
The Bill is designed to expire at the end of June, 1968. This firm limit is in accordance with the essentially temporary nature of the Bill. Rationing or any other restrictions may well not be needed. Even if they are, I certainly hope, as, I am sure, does everybody else, that they will not be needed for as long as the Bill is expressed to last. To name a much earlier date for the expiry of the Bill could, however, in certain circumstances make for certain administrative difficulties.
To sum up, therefore, the Bill is a purely precautionary and temporary enabling Measure. It does not bring petrol rationing or any other restrictions that may be necessary in the use of oil any nearer. That would require the making of Orders under the Bill. I repeat, the Government have not yet decided that any restrictions will be necessary. Plans and preparations—I have said this publicly—have been pressed ahead ever since the flow of oil to this country was first interrupted. in my view, common sense required that, particularly as petrol rationing cannot be introduced at the drop of a hat but is a very big administrative exercise. It entails a considerable operation in terms of staff, accommodation, supplies of coupons and the time required to issue coupons to the public.

Sir Robert Cary: Have any been printed?

Mr. Marsh: Yes, but if the hon. Member is making a request for a special supply I could not accommodate him.
Only when the Bill has become law will it be possible to translate the plans and preparations which are in train into actual rationing—if rationing should ever be called for. I look forward, as do all hon. Members, to the end of this unfortunate crisis. This is a temporary situation, but I think that the House will agree that it would be a dereliction of duty not to take these first initial preparatory steps in case of need. No one will be happier than myself and the remainder of the House if the Bill is doomed never to be operated.

10.12 p.m.

Sir Keith Joseph: We are grateful to the Minister for his explanation of the main features of the Bill. Of course we deplore the circumstances which have given rise to the need for any Bill of this sort, but we agree that the Government are right to take preparatory steps and, in general, we do not propose to question the principles of the Bill.
But rationing can be justified, I am sure the Minister agrees, only when a necessary commodity is in such short supply that essential users may be squeezed out either by price or by pre-emption by other users. The first question, therefore, which we put to the Government is whether there is freedom for the oil industry to maintain supplies to the full demand of the market. I do not press the Minister to go into figures, but are the oil companies free to bring in as much oil as they think the market demands—free in respect of foreign currency either to pay for the tankers or to buy oil from North or South American sources in place of Middle Eastern sources? The economics of oil supply is a very esoteric subject and I do not pretend to be a master of it, but if foreign currency is involved in maintaining our supplies, will the Government tell us whether the oil companies are free to serve the market fully?
Secondly, has the Minister had, or is he having, or will he be having, preparatory talks with representatives of private users of fuel of all sorts, industrial users of fuel of all sorts, and utility users of fuel of all sorts, including the health service and similar services, in order to establish up-to-date criteria for the fair and sensible allocation of fuel if it should become in short supply? We do not expect details at this stage, but there may be a few detailed questions which we shall put in Committee. We should like to know whether those talks with all the representative bodies are going on and whether the Minister will be fully informed of those needs which are wholly dependent on oil.
There is one detailed question connected with the drafting of the Bill which is sufficiently important for me to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to try to help

us. It arises on Clause 1(3). The Minister referred to it. It is the subsection in which the Minister has power to direct a refiner or supplier of liquid fuel to supply to a particular user a particular quantity. Will the Parliamentary Secretary to give us some idea of the kind of circumstance against which this is meant to safeguard?
Fourthly, while we realise that the situation is changing the whole while, can the Minister give us an idea of the safe period, so to speak, before which he does not anticipate having to introduce rationing? Is the moment of decision about rationing several weeks away, at the earliest, or does not the right hon. Gentleman even have, because of the constantly fluctuating situation, that vague an impression about the timing? I assure him that any news about the timing he can give us will be of interest to the House and the country.
These are the four questions which I wish to ask at this stage. My hon. Friends may have further questions to put and, naturally, we reserve our right to go into the Bill in greater detail in Committee.

10.14 p.m.

Mr. Derek Page: While I appreciate the need for the Bill, there are a few points which need clearing up. For example, what effect will rationing have on rural areas? The steady rundown of public transport in areas such as Norfolk has already placed a great burden on many people. There is now increasing reliance on private motor cars and the rundown of public transport, coupled with this fact, makes the prospect of rationing particularly worrying for people who now rely on their own vehicles.
More and more families now depend on their own cars, even to the extent of having moved away from areas of industry. They are, therefore, dependent on their own vehicles not just for their convenience but for their absolute living.
I trust that the Minister will have power to make differential allowances of fuel. However, a number of railway lines in Norfolk are, we suspect, on the verge of closure orders. It would seem highly inappropriate for decisions about these lines to go ahead at this stage.
Certainly no decision should be made for closing them until the question of fuel supplies for road transport is absolutely clear. Will my right hon. Friend consult the Minister of Transport and suggest that decisions on these lines should be deferred in the present situation?

10.15 p.m.

Sir Ronald Russell: Like the hon. Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Derek Page), I will not detain the House for long. The Minister mentioned that at the time of Suez the Government required 1,800 additional staff to cope with fuel rationing. Although he said that he did not think that this would go in arithmetical progression, has he calculated the additional number of staff that will be needed, and from where they will be obtained? I appreciate that there is a large number of people unemployed at present, but are they suitable for this work? If not, is there any chance of using part-time workers? Many retired civil servants—for example, school teachers—might be suitable for this sort of work.

Mr. Marsh: It might he convenient if I answer the hon. Gentleman's question now. It is difficult to say precisely how many people we will need, but we will probably require about 2,500. I agree that it is difficult to find them at present, but we are relying—and it looks as if this will work very well—on assistance from other Government Departments. However, it is clear that we will need to have part-time staff as well.

Sir R. Russell: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that answer.
Can he say what has been the cost of printing the ration books? As we hope that this will be a complete waste of money, is he ensuring that when these books are printed—if they are not already printed—they will be capable of being used on a future occasion, should another awkward situation arise? We do not want to see money being wasted and I trust that it will be possible for these evil things to be kept in case they are needed on a future occasion. We do not want to be obliged to print new ones every time a possible crisis arises.

10.18 p.m.

Mr. Eric Ogden: The House will share the hope of the Minister that this is one piece of legislation that will never be used. Further to my right hon. Friend's full statement tonight, can he say whether the organisation of fuel supplies will be a joint responsibility of the Ministry and the major oil companies on the lines of the Petroleum Board during the last war —a rather loose organisation in which the oil companies did most of the supplying? If so, can he guarantee that there will be a place for the new oil companies that have come forward since the end of the last war—Total, Jet, Agip, and others?
Does he visualise the continuation of graded petrols, or has his Ministry gone so far as to talk of "pool" petrol again? Is he aware of a temptation that already exists, and of which I have personal knowledge, of people saying, "Let us get some petrol on one side, either in cans or drums or any handy place"? That is a very real danger. Would my right hon. Friend consider again the undesirability of this Bill lapsing after 12 months? He gave one reason why it should but if rationing is to be introduced by an Order later, what is the objection to having the Bill on the Statute Book? I hope that I am wrong, but I do not believe that this is the last time we shall have difficulties over oil supplies from overseas.

10.21 p.m.

Mr. Peter Emery: I must immediately declare an interest in that I have some connection with oil companies. While this is a brief Bill, it is a very powerful one. I am quite certain that the oil companies wish to do everything possible to co-operate with the Minister in ensuring that oil supplies are properly administered in the event of any shortage. Those companies have already shown complete willingness to co-operate with the right hon. Gentleman in the present situation of shortage in the oil industry.
I should like to ask the Minister a few questions. This is a general Bill, and I can assure him that no one wishes to be critical. We realise that there must be some weaknesses and misunderstandings in any legislation that is brought forward quickly, so I again stress that I


am not being critical in asking my questions.
In referring to liquid fuel in the Bill, has the Ministry decided what it means by that term? Does the Minister believe that the Bill gives him powers to decide what is and what is not a liquid fuel? For instance, L.P.G. can be liquid at some time, or can be gaseous, as Propane, at other times.

Mr. Marsh: I am grateful to the hon. Member for mentioning that point as it is important in relation to certain groups. Naphtha, for example, would not be covered by the Bill, as it is not legally a liquid fuel. The point is that the suppliers and users of naphtha are so relatively few that it is easier to deal with that aspect administratively. The point the hon. Member mentioned is one that we encouraged rather abruptly, but it can be dealt with administratively, because, as I say, naphtha is dealt with by only a very small number of companies.

Mr. Emery: I thank the Minister for intervening to give me that information.
What about lubricating oil? It is not normally thought of as a fuel, but if there were a shortage over a lengthy period the Government might rightly want powers to control it.
The Minister has rightly taken powers to direct the supply of fuel whether from refineries or other sources in order that the public interest may be protected. If a refinery or a company supplying fuel has an adequate amount of fuel to cover its normal contractual obligations but, having been directed by the Government to use its supplies in the best interests of the nation, finds that it cannot fulfil its contracts, what is that company's position?
Normally, I am informed this would not fall under a force majeure decision whereby the contract would be void; this is because the supplies were in the possession of the company. Obviously, companies wish to co-operate with the Government. I hope that the Government will try to ensure that the companies should not suffer legally because they are carrying out the objects of the Bill. This is a rather technical legal point but the matter is not made clear in the Bill. I hope that the Minister will turn his mind to it.
Another problem arises under Clause 1. Some oil companies have a strong desire to fulfil contracts whatever the cost, particularly long-term contracts given to certain firms or public authorities. They pride themselves upon being able to live up to these contracts and would be willing because normal sources of supply have been lost to go perhaps to Venezuela or America to provide supplies. They could then meet the contracts at considerably greater cost than that envisaged when the original contracts were made.
If the Minister then used his power to direct the supply to other sources which I believe he should have, I suggest that the company should be able to be reimbursed, not necessarily with the initial price but the additional price which it had paid to obtain to fulfil the contracts. This is an involved point, but it is an important one because this would encourage oil companies to ensure that the maximum amount of liquid fuel was here to meet the emergency. This is not the foreign exchange point which was made by my right hon. Friend but it is an additional pricing point.
I greatly admire the hon. Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Derek Page), who somehow was able to bring in rail closures in this debate. I immediately wish to follow that approach, for the Exeter-Exmouth line should not be closed, but I realise to pursue this point in this debate would be ruled out of order by you, Mr. Speaker.
Because of the extensive powers given by the Bill, there are two other things I wish to ask. If it were necessary to prolong the operation of the Bill more than Clause 8 suggests, "from 30th June, 1968, or as Parliament should otherwise determine", how does the Minister envisage this being done? I am not certain what is in his mind, and the Bill does not spell this out. Secondly, under Clause 5 there is reference to the negative Resolution procedure. I do not wish to exaggerate the powers given to the Minister; they are considerable. They are powers which normally the Opposition would object to most strongly as they give carte blanche to any Government in peacetime.
I am sure that the Minister would agree that this would be the right stand for the Opposition to take in normal


circumstances, but this is a particular case and we do not object. However, as the powers are so considerable, would the Minister consider that this should be done by affirmative Resolution rather than the negative procedure?

Mr. Speaker: I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Member, but this is a point which he could make in Committee.

Mr. Emery: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I shall not continue on that line.
Because of the extensiveness of these powers, the Minister will realise that if this could be done with the co-operation of both sides of the House which is evident in this Second Reading debate, he would be benefiting the Government and showing the possibility of greater co-operation with the industry. I do not like to welcome a Bill of this nature, but I recognise that the right hon. Gentleman has to bring it forward. Obviously, the suppliers, their customers and the Government want to ensure that available supplies will be dealt with fairly, and the Bill sets out the procedure which can ensure that this is done.

Mr. Sydney Bdwell: In Clause 1(4) there is reference to persons paying
such price in respect of the fuel as may be reasonable.
May the House have the assurance from the Minister that he will act vigorously should there be an element of profiteering? Also, can he give us a little information of the criteria he would use to determine what would be a reasonable price?

10.31 p.m.

Mr. Marsh: I do not want any misconception to get abroad about this matter. The Bill contains no general price control powers. The only provision relating to prices is Clause 1(4), to which my hon. Friend has referred, which gives me power to demand a reasonable price only where I am directing a supplier to supply to a particular user. It is very doubtful whether price control powers could be imported into the Bill as drawn. Certainly, if there were widespread profiteering—which I would doubt, but in those circumstances —the Government have very real powers of control over the actual supplier of oil.

10.32 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Power (Mr. Reginald Freeson): I shall try to answer, so far as I can, some of the specific questions which were put to my right hon. Friend. First of all, there were the points which were put by the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph). He asked whether there is freedom for the oil companies to bring in as much oil as actually required. The answer to that is that there are no restrictions on the oil companies in this connection.
The right hon. Gentleman asked whether there had been consultations with users of oil as regards a future fair allocation of supplies should rationing need to be introduced. The answer to that is that there have been discussions with the C.B.I., with the Health Service, various Government Departments, and the motoring organisations, and these, of course, will continue as may be necessary as we proceed.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the kind of circumstances in which Clause 1(3) might be operative. There could be a variety of circumstances. For illustration, suppose a hospital began to run snort of supplies it might well be necessary—it would be necessary—for the Minister, in the circumstances operating under this Bill to direct that such an organisation should receive supplies from the appropriate quarter. There could be other similar circumstances.
The right hon. Gentleman finally asked whether we had any idea in mind as to the timing of rationing, whether it would be a matter of weeks, or what. The answer I have to give to that—I use my words carefully—is that there are no immediate intentions to introduce rationing, and there is no actual timing in mind at present.
Then my hon. Friend the Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Derek Page) made a particular point about the railway situation in his part of the country. We will undertake to draw this point to the attention of the Minister of Transport.
The hon. Member for Wembley, South (Sir R. Russell) asked about the cost of ration books. I do not know the answer. It is not a considerable sum. He urged us to keep these in stock now that we have them, in case a similar situation


arose in future. The answer to that is that a previous stock was maintained, which assisted in the long-stop operation, and we will, of course, continue to keep a certain supply in stock.
My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) asked whether we should not set up a petroleum board, such as we had during the war. There is no such thought in mind. The powers in the Bill will rest entirely with the Government, but the companies are co-operating and we do not feel that the circumstances would require a repetition of the wartime control.
My hon. Friend went on to ask whether we would be introducing pool petrol, as was the case immediately after the war, I should point out that the technical advances which have taken place in this industry since then obviate the need for such a technique of supply.
The only observation that I would make on my hon. Friend's query about people buying up supplies is that hoarding would only make life more difficult for the industry and for the community at large. Certainly, nothing should be said or done which would encourage anything of this kind being undertaken either by industry or private consumers.
The hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) raised a number of mainly technical points, one or two of which can be dealt with in Committee. On the question of the direction of supply, we can certainly look at the question of force majeure, if it requires to be looked at, in Committee, but, as I understand the position under Clause 1(3) a direction issued by the Minister would take account of this particular point.
As far as lubricants are concerned, this is a question of fact, and I do not intend to try to define the particular point of fact that the hon. Gentleman was putting. Lubricants are lubricating oils, and if there should be any quarrel about it I think that this is a matter for the technicians.
We were asked, if there should be a need for an extension of the Bill, what technique would we operate? We have got a year, if and when the Bill goes through, to consider how we might

operate should there be such an unfortunate necessity.
I think that the rest of the points that the hon. Gentleman raised were Committee points. I believe that I have dealt with all the matters which have been raised so far as they need to be answered this evening.

Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Could the hon. Gentleman state the position with regard to 1.p.g.— liquified petroleum gas? In reply to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) he stated that naphtha was not within the Bill because clearly, it is not a fuel; it is a chemical feed stock. But liquified petroleum gases are a fuel; the bulk of them are used as a fuel. It will be helpful to the trade to know whether these will be comprised within the restrictions or not.

Mr. Freeson: Yes, they would be. Naphtha is not a fuel and, in any case, it can be handled, as my right hon. Friend said, simply by administrative action, since there are only about eight sources of use in the country. But l.p.g. would, in fact, be covered.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Ioan L. Evans.]

Committee Tomorrow.

CONTROL OF LIQUID FUEL [MONEY]

Queen's Recommendation having been signified—

Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make temporary provision for controlling the supply, acquisition and consumption of liquid fuel in the United Kingdom, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of —

(a) any expenses incurred by any Government department (except the Postmaster-General) in consequence of the said Act of the present Session;
(b) any increase attributable to the provisions of that Act in the sums payable out of moneys so provided under any other Act.—[Mr. Freeson.]

HOUSE OF COMMONS MEMBERS' FUND

Resolved,
That one-tenth of the sums deducted or set aside in the current year from the salaries of Members of Parliament under section (1) of the House of Commons Members' Fund Act 1939 and one-tenth of the contribution determined by the Treasury for the current year under section (1) of the House of Commons Members' Fund Act 1957 be appropriated for the purposes of section (4) of the House of Commons Members' Fund Act 1948. —[Sir O. Crosthwaite-Eyre.]

BERMUDA CONSTITUTION BILL

Considered in Committee [Progress, 26th June].

[Sir ERIC FLETCHER in the Chair]

Clause 1.—(POWER TO PROVIDE BY ORDER IN COUNCIL FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF BERMUDA.)

Amendment proposed: In page 1, line 13, at end, insert:
'Provided that without prejudice to the generality of4this subsection. Her Majesty may by Order in Council provide for the registration of electors in Bermuda and for the law in regard to the disqualification of candidates for election to the House of Assembly.'—[Miss Lestor.]

Question again proposed, That those words be there inserted.

10.40 p.m.

Mr. James Johnson: A few days ago, on 26th June, we were discussing this question and we were stopped by the passage of time that morning. Since then, I have felt a bit like Mahomet's coffin, suspended in the middle of a most elaborate statistical argument. I was interrupted by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt)—he is not present at the moment—who volleyed below me, and my hon. Friend the Minister of State kindly interpolated some figures of her own.
We were discussing the visit of Mr. Hucks, who did some very good work on the question of registration of electors, the whole object being that as many people as possible should get to the polls. My hon. Friend the Minister of State had said that, according to the P.L.P. memorandum, about 75 per cent. of voters had registered in 1963. I hope

that she will, with her usual courtesy, allow me to go on to explain the matter further. Now that I have, in the meantime, had the benefit of studying the results of Mr. Hucks' work, I think that I can put it more correctly.
To establish where we are, I quote, first, from paragraph 8 of the Opposition Party's memorandum. On the registration of Parliamentary electors, it says:
The present system is defective. It is unfair and prejudices the working-class elector. As will be seen from Appendix I, only 61 per cent. of potential electors were registered in Pembroke North, which contains one-third of the total coloured vote in the Colony.
I could go on to quote other figures.
At the end, the Opposition Party suggested that the United Kingdom Government
might consider lending to the Colony, under Technical Aid, an expert who has experience in the compiling of electoral registers and who would be in charge of the preparation of a full and up-to-date register".
This was done. Mr. Hucks went out.
I have now the benefit, which I had not on the last occasion, of some solid figures and the statements made by the expert who was sent out by the Government. On the first page of his report, dated Friday 14th April, 1967, he says, in paragraph 4:
My terms of reference were, 'to undertake a review of the existing system of registration for Parliamentary elections in Bermuda, and to see what improvements can be made in the system'.
Unhappily, in paragraph 6, on the next page, I read:
I interpret my terms of reference to confine me to the consideration of improvements to the existing voluntary system in Bermuda.
In other words, he was not sent to change the system, but a number of people, not least the delegates to the conference, thought that that was what he was being sent to do. Mr. Hucks was under no illusions about what he had to do. He got on with the job, and the result is seen in paragraph 29, on page 5:
The actual number registered for the 1963 election was 14,896 which is 64 per cent. of this registrable total. But as the registration was done earlier in the year the registrable total would be slightly less and the percentage actually registered slightly over 64%.
Therefore, these citizens have two elections, first to get registered, in which


about 64 per cent. take part, and the second when possibly half of that 64 per cent. actually make a mark on the paper and try to elect their members.
10.45 p.m.
This is quite unsatisfactory. I wonder why Mr. Hucks was sent out. I understood that this expert was being sent to look at the whole system and alter it if possible. It has not been possible. The U.B.P., which my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West has unkindly called the "United Bankers' Party," met the minority party with a view to the alteration of the law. We now know, although we did not know it when we had our first debate, that the U.B.P. has not accepted any alterations, and it will go into battle at the next election in mid-1968 under conditions which I think to be unfair to the mass of the coloured electors, who will find some difficulty in making clear their right to vote.
I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will answer some of our questions and tell us what she thinks of the situation. I do not think that she is any more happy about it than I am. What chances are there of possible changes for the coming elections? She may say that they are nil, because the Select Committee there is deciding what it wishes in its own society, where its members live and pay their taxes. I understand that they pay nothing but indirect taxes, although many people there could well pay a form of income tax.
I hope that my hon. Friend will also tell us what are likely to be the conditions after the mid-1968 elections, whether it will be possible to consider changes in the light of what has happened for a future election, which may come in the 1970s. This is where the crunch conies, because we cannot now alter the Select Committee's decision, which the Minister, I am afraid, may be forced by the Constitution to accept.
What we want is some form of guarantee—I notice that my hon. Friend the Minister is nodding; I think that she is nodding assent—or, if not a guarantee, at least an assurance that when the elections are over we shall have another look at the position in the light of our experiences in mid-1968, which, I hope, will not be too unhappy, and see what should be done.
The second part of the Amendment was about the qualifications of candidates. It is a fact that has never been denied that those working in the public sector are debarred from standing as candidates. It is a fact of life in Bermuda that should be changed as soon as possible. Looking at other colonial territories, in some of which I have actively worked at election time, particularly in Africa, it seems absurd that bus conductors, mechanics and fitters looking after publicly owned buses should not be allowed to stand for election. An obvious example is teachers. It is most unfair, to put it at its mildest, that bankers, builders and contractors in an island like this, where they have so much at stake financially and in the way of contracts, should be able to stand for the Assembly and even the Executive Cabinet.
It is not only unfair but unusual in my experience elsewhere. I have worked with leaders of other independence and opposition parties in other parts of the coloured Commonwealth, and it is out of the ranks of teachers—an example is Kenneth Kaunda, of Zambia—mechanics, bus conductors and the like, and union leaders—Tom Mboya of Kenya is an example—that the leaders of independence movements come. It should be the same in Bermuda.

Mr. Arthur Lewis: It is the same in this country, too.

Mr. Johnson: Of course, but I was speaking in a colonial context, where education is much more hardly got—or was in the past—and where there are masses of illiterate and even inarticulate workers. It is there that the teacher or union leader, by virtue of his gifts and qualifications and by being able to understand what the authorities are proposing. comes to the top.
I congratulate the Minister of State—I know she will take no offence at this—on the wide-upmanship of the Government in putting this business on the Order Paper for this late hour. Good-natured people like myself and my colleagues do not wish to penalise Ministers by sitting after midnight, unlike the mischievous Opposition, who always do it. But so should we if we were in opposition. But I think that we should use a little moderation and common sense about this and later, perhaps on Clause as a whole, we


might make the point I mentioned earlier about what is to happen about consultation and decision-making after the next election in 1968.

Mr. Michael Foot: I apologise to my hon. Friend the Minister of State on two grounds, first, because I have not previously taken part in the debates on the Bill, and, secondly, because I fully appreciate that it is extremely hard on Ministers that they should have to sit up late at night. It is hard on us, but it is also hard on them.
But having read the proceedings on the Bill so far, I wish that I had taken part earlier. My hon. Friend is one of the best members of the Government. I do not hold her absolutely responsible for everything presented here, although I am sure she will defend what is presented. But I say to her and the Government, if they are listening, that, as I read through the OFFICIAL REPORT of the previous debates, I became more and more concerned about the whole proposition which is now being put before us.
It is right, therefore, that we should make it clear to the people of Bermuda that the House of Commons is extremely concerned about this Bill and that if we do pass it we shall do so only with great reluctance among hon. Members on this side. I say that because of the peculiar position that arises under the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) has referred, also, to what I consider to be the most important aspect, and my hon. Friend the Minister of State also mentioned it on Second Reading.
It concerns what will be the position under the Orders in Council and what will be the possibility of putting the kind of proposals contained in this Amendment following the elections which will take place in 1968 under this Constitution—assuming that the Orders in Council are put into operation. The situation is peculiar, because the Government first told us, in the Report of the Bermuda Constitutional Conference:
It was pointed out on behalf of the United Kingdom Government that the form of the new Constitution could be made an election issue and that if a majority of members were elected to the House of Assembly who were opposed to some or all of its features, the new Government would then have a mandate from

the electorate to seek further changes which the United Kingdom Government would, of course, consider.
I fully agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West, that we should be grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister of State for going considerably further than that. It would be graceless on our part if we did not acknowledge that her statement on Second Reading did go further. Perhaps that was due to the fact that some of my hon. Friends had been pressing the Government strongly. I would like detailed clarification of what her undertaking meant. She said:
…it does not have to be a request made by the electors of the majority party, and it does not have to be the majority party only in the House of Assembly which asks us to consider further changes to be considered.
That was a concession beyond what was said at the time of the Conference.
My hon. Friend went on.
If the P.L.P., after the next election, says that we should look again at this matter, we shall consider that request although, obviously, I cannot give a free commitment because one does not know just what the request might be." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th June, 1967; Vol. 748, c. 1061.]
This is a very interesting statement. I repeat. My hon. Friend says:
If the P.L.P., after the next election, says that we should look again at this matter, we shall consider that request…
11.0 p.m.
The P.L.P. is asking that we should look again at the matter now. It must appear somewhat strange to the P.L.P. representatives and supporters in Bermuda that they are told that after the election their representations will be considered further, but that their representations are being rejected now; that is, their representations about the two matters in the Amendment about registration and qualifications for standing.
On the face of it, that is a peculiar undertaking. I cannot recall such an undertaking being given in those circumstances. It seems very strange that the Government should say, "We will be prepared to look at your representations after the election, but we are not prepared to look at them before. We think they may be valid after the election, but they are not valid now."
That is a very strange situation. I think that the Government realise the


faulty position in which they have been placed and wish to make a concession which shows that they recognise this and are prepared to put it right. However, in the process of doing so they have made a commitment to listen to the representations of the P.L.P. after the election when they are not prepared to accept their representations now.
What are the results of the election that are likely to influence the Government? I acknowledge and repeat that the Government have gone further than the previous undertaking and have agreed that they will, after the election, not merely pay heed to representations from the majority party, according to this registration and according to this electoral law, but they will also be prepared to pay heed, if necessary, to the minority party.
Suppose there is an aggregate vote under this election and under that aggregate vote it is clear that there is a majority against the Constitution that we are discussing. Although that majority is not represented in the House of Assembly, will the Government then give an undertaking that they will certainly revoke the Constitution or come back with new proposals if the total aggregate vote shows that there is a rejection of the present Constitution, or will the Government give an undertaking about a timetable when they will reconsider this matter?
I think that, having gone so far, the Government must now go further still and make clearer what is the commitment. I am glad that the commitment was made that there will be a reconsideration of all these matters, because it casts a strange reflection on the whole of the Bill that we are now considering when the Government is seeking to get it through the House by saying, "We will reconsider the whole of the matter again immediately after the election or very soon after the election if any representations are made to us then."
The Government know now that representations will be made to them immediately after the election, whichever way the election goes. It may be that the representations will be greatly reinforced by what happens at the election, but there is not the slightest doubt—my hon. Friend the Minister of State knows it as well as I do—that the P.L.P. will not change

its views. If the election goes very favourably for it, she may be able to say, "This Constitution was not so badly rigged as some of us have charged." She may be able to argue that, but, even if that is the case, she will have the representations.
The Government must not think that they are disposing of this matter by this Bill when they get it through. They are not disposing of it, because we will soon have it all back again. Some of us are arguing—and the more I look at it the more I think it will be a good case—that it will be better to go through the whole process again before the election and remodel it, and we have put forward proposals for the way in which it could be improved. But the Government have agreed that to a great extent our work will be superfluous, because it will be superseded by what happens soon after the election.
My hon. Friend the Minister of State has made a major concession, and, if it has not driven a coach and horses through the Bill, it has driven a very large hole through it. But in many respects it would have been better for the Government to hold up the whole Bill. I understand that they have plenty of time.

The Chairman: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman. It will be obvious to the Committee that the debate is proceeding well beyond the rather narrow limits of the Amendment. In view of the way in which the debate has taken place so far, it may well be convenient to have a wide debate on the Amendment now to enable us to save time later.

Mr. Foot: That is perfectly agreeable to me, Sir Eric. This is the first time for a long time that I have been interrupted with an invitation to widen the discussion, but I resist the temptation and will conclude within a few minutes.
Those of us who have come to press this matter on the Government are extremely serious about it. We do not think that it is right to push through this archaic Constitution in the way in which the Government propose. I know that my hon. Friend has argued on several occasions that this is an advance on what has happened before, but we all know that when an institution is reformed and the reform does not go far enough,


the fact that there has been a reform gives it a respectability.
This Constitution is regarded by those who think that they are to benefit from it as being a Constitution which will last for a considerable time. As the position has not been changed for about 1,000 years, it would be difficult to introduce a Bill which did not make any improvements and, of course, there have been some. But those who predominantly shaped it and who think that they will benefit from it think that the Constitution will last for a considerable time.
However, the Government do not say that. They say that immediately after the elections they will probably have to reconsider the whole matter. I do not know whether that is fully understood in Bermuda, and it ought to be understood. My major suggestion is that the Government should withdraw the Bill in which case we might be able to discuss it in November. I do not believe that the Government fully appreciate the implications of the concessions which they have made.
If they are not prepared to do that, this discussion will have served a useful purpose in making it absolutely clear to the people of Bermuda that this Constitution is a temporary affair and that once they have gone through elections, representations can be made, whatever the results of the election might be, and that the Government will consider those representations very carefully.
All I am saying is that as a matter of logic and convenience it might have been very much better if the Government had now fully taken into account the representations of the P.L.P., which probably represents the majoritiy of the people of the island, rather than to take them into account in a year's time, or whenever it may be, when the Government will be committed to taking them into account and presenting fresh Orders in Councils and, perhaps, fresh legislation on the subject.

Mr. Gerard Fitt: Since the introduction of the Bill the tone of the debates on it has been notable for the conflict between the figures given by my hon. Friend the Minister of State and by my hon. Friends. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West

(Mr. James Johnson) pointed out the vast contradiction between the two sets of figures. I should like to clarify the position by presenting the figures which I have, so that there can be no room for further argument in this respect.
Paragraph 8 of the P.L.P. report made it quite clear that what was being asked for was that the British system of registration should be introduced into Bermuda. It made this quite clear, and the wording cannot be contradicted. It states:
The Party therefore proposes that the Conference should decide upon the adoption of a registration system based on that in force in the United Kingdom.
It is quite clear what the Progressive Labour Party wanted in the new Constitution. In the Second Reading debate the Minister said:
A suggestion was discussed at the Constitutional Conference that the registration system in Bermuda should be chanced to the kind of system used in this country.
I would suggest to the hon. Lady, as she is a lady, that there is a vast difference between a suggestion and a proposal. One can be caught for breach of promise on a proposal, but one cannot be caught on a suggestion.
My hon. Friend went on to say:
But there was no convincing evidence that the present system operated unfairly."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th June, 1967; Vol. 748. c. 1055.]
I suggest to her that there was overwhelming evidence that the present system was operating unfairly because everyone at the conference agreed that the registration system was ineffective. That was the reason why it was decided to have new boundaries drawn up in Bermuda, and that they would be drawn not on the registration, but on the estimated potential electorate. Since then that has happened. What is the use of drawing up a constituency on the estimated total of the people who will have the right to vote if those people are not registered as voters?
The whole academic exercise is of no avail if the boundaries are divided on the estimated voting population and then, when the election comes round, one finds that those voters are not registered and, therefore, not entitled to vote? It was agreed at the conference that an expert from the Colonial Office, a man with vast experience in these matters, would


go out to Bermuda to see whether the existing system could be improved. The P.L.P. has made it clear, in all its publications, and in its personal submissions to hon. Members on this side of the Committee, that it was under the impression that this expert would go out to Bermuda to see whether the British system could be implanted in Bermuda.
It was in no doubt whatever about that. Then it found that when Mr. Hucks got there one of the first decisions that he arrived at was that this matter was outside his terms of reference, and that he could not implement the British system in Bermuda. Many of my hon. Friends have had made available to them Mr. Hucks's report and I suggest that no one who had paid any attention to the report would be under any doubt that the registration system there is totally inadequate to bring about a democratic electorate in Bermuda.
I am sure that my right hon. Friend would be bound to agree with me in this. In paragraph 15 of the report, he says:
Registration officers do not question or check the qualifications of the persons applying to them for registration.
This means that a person in Bermuda can walk into a registration centre, give his name and address, and the registration officer, in the words of Mr. Hucks, would have no opportunity to check that person's bona fides. It is possible for the same person to do the same thing in a number of centres. There are 18 registration centres in Bermuda.

Mr. James Johnson: My hon. Friend should read the succeeding paragraph, paragraph 16, which says:
With the births and immigration records available to the Registrar in Hamilton City it should not be difficult to check the qualifications of any applicant.
This is true.

11.15 p.m.

Mr. Fitt: I agree with my hon. Friend. Paragraph 16, however, seems to contradict paragraph 15, because paragraph 15 states that registration officers do not question or check the qualifications, but the succeeding paragraph states that it should not be difficult to check them.
Let us take paragraphs 69 to 72 in relation to paragraph 15. Paragraph 69 states:

My terms of reference permit me to consider improvements to the registration system that do not necessarily lead to increasing the number of persons registered.
I fail to understand this terminology. What is the intention of trying to improve the existing system if it does not lead to an increase in the number of persons registered? It seems to be a waste of time.
Following on in paragraph 70, it is stated that
In England millions of people are registered; millions go to vote. If a few unqualified persons are left in the registers and vote. the chances of their voting having any effect on the election results are infinitesimal.
The most important paragraph, however, is paragraph 71, which states:
In Bermuda with 18 constituencies sharing a total electorate of less than 18,000 (so far) the value of individual votes is enormously greater than in England. In the 1963 election. the losing candidate in Hamilton East lost by four votes; the best loser in Smith's East lost by 69 votes; in Paget West the best loser lost by 96 votes; in Southampton West the best loser lost by 36 votes; in Sandys South the best loser lost by 45 votes. It is now proposed to increase the constituencies to 20 so that unless the electorate is increased margins may be even smaller in future.
This is the most important part of the report, because it highlights what can happen under the present ineffective registration system.
Paragraph 72 reads:
In such conditions the registration of even a few unqualified persons and their subsequent voting may easily affect election results.
Paragraph 15 states that there is to be no check on any person who walks into a registration office and says, "My name is John Smith. I live at…" and goes to another registration centre and yet another and does the same thing. It is pointed out in paragraph 72 that this could influence the result of an election. Therefore, the recommendation, not of the Progressive Labour Party or of any other person in Bermuda, but of an expert sent from this country, proves that the system is totally ineffective.
I have tried to illustrate what could happen under the existing system if it is maintained. It may not benefit the United Bermuda Party, it may not benefit the Progressive Labour Party. Whatever party it may benefit, in those


circumstances it negates the whole democratic concept of elections as we know them.
That is why I support my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot). The next election in Bermuda will be fought under the present system. In paragraph 72 of his report, Mr. Hucks states that even a few unqualified voters could decide an election. We are in the position of accepting the situation that a few voters may find themselves in the position of dictating the outcome of an election and then, later, we are to be asked to take steps to remedy the effect of what has happened.
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale that now is the time to take steps to make certain that what I have illustrated does not happen. The case which my hon. Friends have put forward is unanswerable. It has been proved conclusively that the system is not effective. Mr. Hucks himself goes on to say that the present system was 64 per cent. effective and the recommendations which he had made might increase the effectiveness up to 70 per cent.
We should not be prepared to accept that a 70 per cent. effectiveness in the registrations is right. In the system in this country—and I am the first to say that it could not be bettered—we must have a 90 per cent. to 95 per cent. accuracy. What is good in this country is good for Bermuda.
Mr. Hucks said in his report that the system in Bermuda did not operate unfairly against one party or another. He said that the system provided for publicity and that the people had to read the papers to find out when and where they had to register. But, in paragraph 45, he said:
For publicity media. Bermuda is exceptionally well equipped. But its advertisement of the 1967 registration period in the newspapers was rather meagre. It was confined to a reproduction for the formal Government notice giving dates, times and places for registration and inserted once in each paper over a week before the registration period was due to begin. Bermuda newspapers bulge with advertisements of all sizes and shapes. I found the registration notices very inconspicuous; indeed, I have considerable difficulty in finding them at all.
This is from the expert who was sent out from this country. He said that one could hardly notice the advertisements in

the press because the papers were all taken up with all sorts of other advertisements. He found the greatest difficulty in finding the Government's notice telling the people where and when to register.

The Minister of State for Commonwealth Affairs (Mrs. Judith Hart): My hon. Friend has described what Mr. Hucks found to be the case at the last election. If he will go on he will see that Mr. Hucks made lists of recommendations for giving greater publicity of the voluntary registrations.

Mr. Fitt: I agree that he makes recommendations, but even these recommendations, he believes, will increase the total amount registration from 64 per cent to only 70 per cent. This is not a figure which we should accept. We should make provision for the highest possible registration because when the next election comes, irrespective of the new boundaries which have been drawn for the estimated total of the electors in any given area, if they are not registered the whole purpose of the exercise will be lost.
The present system will react against the poorer political parties. The United Bermuda Party has been in existence for many years. It was established long before the Progressive Labour Party was established. Its roots are firmly embedded and it will have advantages financially and in every other way. The Progressive Labour Party and the people who support it will be at a disadvantage in the forthcoming elections. I have good reason for saying that. The United Bermuda Party had drawn up the constituencies which existed during the 1963 elections—

The Chairman: The hon. Member is wandering very far from the Amendment. I think that he had better confine himself to it.

Mr. Fitt: The constituencies which existed in 1963 led to the election of a majority of members of the United Bermuda Party. In one constituency there were nearly 5,000 electors and in another 351. This party would have a decided advantage over its political opponents if the present system were maintained.
The Amendment also takes account of the disqualification of candidates, and many of my hon. Friends have voiced their concern at the present situation. In


reply to the Second Reading debate, my right hon. Friend said that the disqualifications which existed in Bermuda were not new and did not relate only to that island. She said that in this country we had disqualification of candidates for various reasons. Many people are disqualified from candidature at local authority elections because they work for the local authority. This is done for specific reasons. Persons are disqualified if they are employed by the local authority on the ground that if they work for that authority, and then are elected, they will be able to influence decisions in their own favour. The words "pecuniary interest" are normally attached to that type of disqualification.
But in Bermuda, bus drivers, bus conductors and manual labourers, for example, are classified as public servants, and in that case any personal interest between their jobs and the situation if they were elected to the authority seems remote. Bankers have a much more direct interest. Bankers who are members of the United Bermuda Party are elected to the House of Assembly. There is a far more direct line of personal interest in their case than with a manual labourer, bus driver or bus conductor who is elected to the Assembly.
The directors of banks are making financial arrangements with the Government and deciding the rate of interest on loans in respect of Government projects which would be financed through the banks. These matters can be closely related to a decision taken by a Member of the Assembly, especially when a member of the United Bermuda Party is a banker. The direct interest is more clearly defined.
It is generally accepted that the Select Committee promised by the United Bermuda Party, to look into the disqualification of candidates to see whether improvements can be made, will make no improvement but will keep the system as it is. I have not had notification of such a decision, but I feel that unless we have information about what has been stated in that respect, my hon. Friend should be reluctant to go ahead with the Bill.
I do not want to delay the debate, but I know that my hon. Friends who wish to take part in it are deeply concerned about the situation which may

arise in Bermuda. The hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) is here, no doubt, in the hope that I shall mention Northern Ireland. He may be disappointed that I have not done so. I will relieve his anxiety. It will be accepted that where the Gerrymandering of constituencies and the non-registration of voters is concerned, no one in the House can speak with greater authority than I, because I live in a country where all these elements are an every-day occurrence in elections in Northern Ireland.
If a situation develops in Bermuda where it is obvious that the present registration system is not working and that the number eligible to vote is not increasing, will my hon. Friend give an undertaking to deal with the matter? If the total number of electors in the area at the next election—irrespective of the number of candidates elected—is against the party which has been elected to the House of Assembly, will my hon. Friend give an undertaking tonight that in those circumstances a new constitutional conference will be called and that all these elements will then be taken into consideration?
In the interests of Bermuda and for the reputation of this country, solemn undertakings should be given that this House will keep a close watch on the developing situation in Bermuda and that Her Majesty's Government will, should it prove necessary, take immediate action without hesitation.

11.30 p.m.

Sir George Sinclair: When the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) was speaking you intervened, Sir Eric, and said that you saw some advantage in allowing wider considerations to come to the surface in discussing the Amendment. That is why I have sought, at this stage, to speak very briefly indeed.
The hon. Member for Ebbw Vale made it clear that he would prefer that further consideration of the Bill should be deferred and that the considerable political advance which the Measure is designed to make possible should be extended still further before a revised constitution is put before this House for consideration.
I can see the force of his argument, but the important feature of the Bill is


that, as the Minister recognises, this is a stage; a flexible approach to political advance. Indeed, the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale also recognises this, for he said that this Constitution is not designed to last as long as the previous one.
We hope that this advance will provide useful experience in the working of a wider Constitution in Bermuda. It is, therefore, useful in itself. It will provide the new conditions in which new political pressures and new demands may become clearer. In the meantime, it will provide useful experience.
We naturally hope that the constitutional arrangements which will emerge from the passing of the Bill will help to maintain good race relations in Bermuda and that tranquillity and respect for law and order, on which so much of the prosperity of Bermuda depends, will prevail.
The Bill has increased the powers of Her Majesty's Government to intervene in Bermuda, and this in itself is a source of reassurance to anybody who is worried about the Measure. The Minister has given far-reaching assurances tonight, including the assurance that if, during the next Parliament in Bermuda, substantially based political demands emerge, Her Majesty's Government will be ready to consider changes. Because of this, because we believe that this is a useful advance which results from careful local consultations, and because we believe that the Bill has a good measure of local support, my hon. Friends and I do not seek to oppose the Measure.

Mr. James Johnson: I assume, from what the hon. Gentleman has said, that if a request is made for a conference to be held fairly soon after the mid-1968 elections he would support that request; that is, if it was felt that the existing arrangements were unsatisfactory.

Sir G. Sinclair: The dominant party in this House is, at the moment, the Labour Party. The Minister has given the assurances she thinks fit. I thought them to be assurances which, in the circumstances of Bermuda today, were reasonable.

Mr. Maurice Orbach: I, too, will take advantage of

your invitation, Sir Eric, to my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) to range somewhat wider than the Amendment so as to shorten the debate.
The hon. Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) raised a question in which I am interested. The Bill is not concerned only with electoral boundaries or qualifications, but that is its core, because behind the Bill rests something on which every hon. Member has declared himself. The United Bermuda Party has also declared itself, and the facts of that declaration should be made known to the House.
Behind the Bill as it stands lies the spectre of discrimination and racialism. Clause 1 and the Amendment deal with the power of the United Kingdom to revoke Acts of Parliament, by Order in Council, or other measures, if necessary. I want to draw the attention of the House —and of the Minister, if her attention has not already been drawn to it—to the atmosphere that now prevails in Bermuda.
I was not aware of this as a problem at first. I had never been to Bermuda, and I thought that this was a simple Bill which would give Bermuda a little more independence than she now has. But since I got interested in the subject as a result of my hon. Friend's intervention in this debate, I have had placed in my hands a most extraordinary document.
It is a report of a meeting that took place in a church at Shelly Bay, Bermuda, which started off with a hymn:
Grant us wisdom, grant us courage, For the facing of this hour.
I do not know the hymn. As I have said, I am a humanist, and, therefore, do not attend church unless I have to do so on behalf of a constituent from time to time.
The meeting was attended by Sir Henry Tucker, leader of the United Bermuda Party, and by Mr. Walter Robinson, of the Progressive Labour Party. It was an interesting meeting because they both made speeches which are extensively reported in this document. The meeting took place towards the end of April of this year, so that it is relevant to our present discussion.
The leader of the United Bermuda Party said:
Bermuda must have a Government 'determined to stamp out bias, prejudice, segregation.' The future leaders must grow up side by side.
It was a speech that all in this House would have applauded, as we have had to break with the present leaders of Rhodesia on the subject of race. I hope that next Session the House will declare itself on racial discrimination, and make it an offence in this country.
The leader of the United Bermuda Party was later interrupted by his opponent, Mr. Walter Robinson, who mentioned the Hotel Keepers' Protection Act of 1930, which had never been amended. He went on:
I know Sir Henry is going to shake his head at this. Even though now coloured people do go into hotels, hotels can still with the protection of the law exclude Negroes.
To that, Sir Henry retorted:
It is not true that the Hotel Keepers' Act of 1930 was to prevent Negroes. It was to enable the hotels which had that policy in those days to allow only non-Jewish people. It was wrong because it was directed against a single religion. But it is a good law because it enables hotels to exclude anyone who is not desirable.
I think every hon. Member of this Committee will think that that law ought to fall by the wayside before we agree to this Constitution. I hope very much that my hon. Friend the Minister, who has now had her attention drawn to the sort of atmosphere in which people live in Bermuda, and the resentment which can he created not only among racial majorities but against religious minorities, will agree that ought not to be accepted by this Committee. I hope that she will make quite clear that so far as she is concerned a law of that type, and any other taw which may be in existence there—

The Temporary Chairman (Mr. Harold Gurden): Order. I understand that my predecessor in the Chair was very generous about the width of the debate. I do not wish to depart from that, but I would like the hon. Member to come back to the Amendment.

Mr. Orbach: I was just finishing, and saying that I hoped that my hon. Friend would make an effective reply to these points.

The Temporary Chairman: Order. I hope that the hon. Lady will not go quite as wide as that.

Mrs. Hart: May I deal, first, with points of detail and then come to the point of substance in the debate.
I think that I will take, first, the question of the qualifications for standing as a candidate, which has been a matter of a great deal of detail and is also one of the central points of the Amendment. I have been asked to say whether I know what the Select Committee in Bermuda has had to say about this. I think that hon. Members will remember that when we began our discussion of the Amendment I said that I did not at that point know when the Select Committee would be reporting. Hon. Members will like to know that the Select Committee has now reported. It has just reported. There is a majority Report and there are two minority Reports. There is the majority Report which is signed by Sir Henry Tucker and other members. There is a minority Report which has been submitted by the Bermuda Democratic Party, and by Mr. Arnold Francis on its behalf. The second minority Report is submitted by Mr. Walter Robinson, on behalf of the P.L.P.
One thing they all have in common will, I think, be welcomed by hon. Members. They all share the view, the majority and both the minority Reports, that industrial employees of the Government of Bermuda should be allowed to stand for Parliament. This is one of the essential points on which my hon. Friend has laid stress. A distinction has been made clearly, in the discussion in the Select Committee, between, on the one hand, industrial employees and, on the other, other kinds of professional employees of the Government. On the question of professional employees—that is to say, non-industrial employees—there is, again, a measure of agreement, but not so general. The majority and both minority Reports are prepared to say that school teachers should be able to stand, but the two minority Reports stress very firmly that this should be so and the majority Report says, in effect, "Yes, they can stand, but we do not think that it is very desirable that they should. Nevertheless, they may."
There is, I must say to the Committee, to be quite frank, another point


of disagreement between both the minority Reports and the majority Report, and that concerns the question of what degree of guarantee of re-employment there should be given to employees who resign to fight an election and who do not win seats and who wish to come back again to Government employment. I do not wish to mislead the Committee. There is a measure of disagreement about that.
There is a second point on which there is a considerable advance, although the degree of advance is a matter of disagreement, and that concerns the question of payment to members of the Assembly, and the way the Assembly should organise its sittings. The majority Report suggests that the House should meet for one full day a week instead of the three half days on which it meets at the moment, and suggests that there should be an increase of attendance fees from 24s. to £10 a day. This is, of course, highly relevant to the question of industrial employees standing for election. It is a relevant point to take into account before making a decision to stand. There is disagreement on the point in that the two majority parties agree on an annual allowance which would work out at rather more.

11.45 p.m.

Mr. James Johnson: Can my hon. Friend tell the Committee how many sitting days and half-days a year there have been?

Mrs. Hart: I could not without a check. This is the very question on which there is disagreement between the majority and minority Reports. The minority Reports suggest that there should be an annual salary. The majority Report suggests that there should be these increases. This is a very relevant matter for debate in Bermuda. It is a matter which is within the responsibility of the Government of Bermuda, and we can make our comments on it, as, indeed, many comments will be made on it in Bermuda.
But at least the Committee can see clearly that on at least two points on which it has expressed itself as being deeply concerned, there has been a considerable change recommended by the majority Report, quite apart from the

minority Reports. I think that my hon. Friends will take the view that there is a degree of what they would consider to be progress in this matter.
I must comment on the question of figures, which has loomed so large from time to time during the debate on this Amendment. Although I know that she could not be here tonight, I must refer to something that my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) said at the beginning of our debate on this Amendment. She quoted figures which suggested that the present registration system could be shown to militate against the coloured community in Bermuda. I want to quote the P.L.P. memorandum. So far as the proportions registered are concerned, there is a difference in the numbers that the P.L.P. memorandum quotes and the numbers that the Hucks Report quotes as having registered. The proportions, one can assume, are not substantially changed by the difference in totals.
My hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough said that what I had said about Southampton and Hamilton bore out her point that the system did, in fact, militate against the coloured community. But the point here is that in these two smallest parishes 77 per cent. of the electorate registered and the constituency in which the highest percentage registered was a constituency with a coloured majority. In other words, the highest percentages registered tended to coincide with the small parishes with coloured majorities. There was no case for arguing that the smallest percentage registered indicated or could be held to prove that this was militating specifically against the coloured community.

Mr. Fitt: This is most important and will help to support the argument that I have advanced. In these two small constituencies, although there may be coloured persons residing in those areas, the residents are of a higher social status. They are the supporters of the U.B.P. The U.B.P. have made certain that they have registered. They are not industrial constituencies. They are up the social scale and they had a higher percentage of registrations than the industrial constituencies.

Mrs. Hart: With respect, my hon. Friend is proving my point. He is now


shifting his ground from saying that the existing system militates against a certain colour to saying that it militates against a certain class. If he is going to argue that, we are on very different ground. This was stated by my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough when she introduced this theme. She said that this is a matter not just of colour, but of class. On that one could have a good deal of discussion, of course.
I wish to quote from paragraph 7 of the Hucks Report. By the end of the evening, we shall have quoted from pretty well every paragraph, I think, but this is a passage to which attention should be drawn as an indication of the degree of advance there has been in Bermuda in these matters over quite recent years. One should not suppose that the new Constitution and the suggestions that Mr. Hucks made for improving the voluntary registration system came on the scene after years and years of inanition on these questions in Bermuda. This is what Mr. Hucks says in paragraph 7:
Up till 1958"—
only 10 years ago—
the franchise was restricted to property owners whose registration entailed the detailed checking of individual title deeds and has therefore little relevance to the present situation. In 1963 a more democratic franchise was introduced but the voluntary registration system was retained. In 1966 a fully democratic franchise was established and the extra property vote abolished and again the voluntary registration system was retained.
Thus, we are considering a situation in which there has been a move in less than 10 years from a system of registration based upon property to a system of registration based upon individual rights irrespective of property. This is a very big advance in 10 years.
In paragraph 39, Mr. Hucks makes a comment on one of the fundamental questions which we are discussing tonight. On the one hand, it is about whether the present system of registration is fair to the coloured community in Bermuda. On the other—and a great many of my hon. Friends' arguments have been directed to this—it is about whether it must always be regarded as essential to abandon voluntary registration and move towards a system like our own, whatever territory we are dealing with. I think that my hon. Friends will agree that

that is a fair summary of the two basic points arising out of the Hucks report which we have discussed.
In paragraph 39, Mr. Hucks says:
No voluntary system ever yields anywhere near 100 per cent. of all possible registrations. The present system is perfectly fair to all. The reason that not more advantage is taken of it at present is that Bermuda is only just beginning to establish political parties—But once political parties oppose each other on principle and struggle for power the arguments begin. People join one side or the other and the desire to register as a voter and to vote rapidly increases. A high rate of voluntary registration arises from political strife.
To a considerable exent, this is true of the way in which we operate our own electoral system. No system in any country, however good, however democratic, is likely to ensure anything like 100 per cent. of the electorate expressing its view at an election. We count ourselves lucky in this country when we achieve voting proportions in the region of 70 or 75 per cent. In 1959, my own constituency had the second highest percentage vote in the country, touching 85 per cent. But this was regarded as a most remarkable achievement.

Mr. Fitt: It had a good candidate.

Mr. James Johnson: With respect to my hon. Friend the Minister, this is not the matter we should be getting our teeth into. We have a voluntary system of voting here. People are on the register, and they can either vote or not. What we object to in Bermuda is not a voluntary system of voting, but a voluntary system of getting on the voters' list. Why should this be so in the fairly advanced society of Bermuda? It is not like some parts of Africa. I am told that people can be located. One can find out where they live. The postman can find them. Why cannot there by a system whereby they are on the electors list, as people are here? Is that impossible?

Mrs. Hart: Perhaps I may continue with the argument I was developing. I was going on to say that with a system of registration like ours it must be accepted that there are put on the register a certain proportion of the electorate who will have no desire to vote and will refrain from voting or are unlikely to have sufficient interest to vote. Whatever the system of registration, one must allow for a certain proportion of people of this kind.
A voluntary system of registration may mean that instead of having 10 per cent. of the people registered but consciously refraining from voting there are 10 per cent. who refrain consciously from voluntarily registering. We are not talking about a 100 per cent. poll but percentages of 60, 70, 75, or even, perhaps, 80 per cent., which we sometimes have in this country.
There is a strong argument that wherever it is physically possible every territory should have our system of registration, but this is very debatable. It is very debatable in Bermuda, where there are not yet the conditions which would allow it to operate easily. I have driven around places in Bermuda where the postman may be able to find the people, but I do not know how, unless he knows them personally, because there is no system of numbers and roads as we know it. I am not saying that it would not be possible to have our system of registration, but it would be necessary to have addresses such as we have.
What matters is that we had a constitutional conference at which, although there was disagreement on this point, it was accepted at the end of the day that an expert should go to see what improvements could be made to the existing system. It is a fact of life which the House must accept that this was the agreement, the end result of a constitutional conference on the basis of which we now have the Bill and shall have the Order in Council setting up the Constitution.
These things cannot be thrown overboard as I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) would have me do. The conference, which was held last November, lasted a full fortnight. It has always been, correctly, the habit of the British Government to observe the conclusions of constitutional conferences which have been correctly conducted and in which there have been full opportunities for discussion, even though—and when this occurs it is very much regretted—there are disagreements at the conference and there cannot be a totally unanimous report but there are minority reports expressing differences.
Mr. Hucks was to look at improvements to the voluntary system, and that

is what he has done. Broadly, his recommendations on improving the effectiveness of the voluntary system and achieving a higher proportion and number of registrations have been accepted by the Select Committee.

Mr. Michael Foot: Would my hon. Friend say which recommendations it has not accepted?

Mrs. Hart: There is just one. I have had no explanation from Bermuda of the arguments on this, but only the results of the Committee's conclusions. To the best of my knowledge the only recommendation not accepted was that relating to the provision of a mobile van to do registration. It may be that there are practical reasons that the Committee took into account. All the other recommendations have been accepted.
12 m.
The recommendations in the Hucks' Report are very far-reaching, and should lead to very considerable improvements. There are recommendations about greater publicity and more facilities. As Mr. Hucks said very well, one cannot have too much publicity if one has a voluntary system and voluntary registration. As he points out, those left unregistered at the close of each period ought to be only those who chose for reasons of their own not to register. It is a reproach to the Government's publicity machine if anyone should remain unregistered because he did not know or had forgotten that he had the opportunity to register. This is what will apply in the 1968 election under the new Constitution and with the improvements that are made in the voluntary system.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale has asked me to clarify the assurance that I gave at the beginning of the debate of the Bill, and I am very ready to do so. What I meant to indicate then —I hope I did—was that after the 1968 election if any of the parties in Bermuda want to discuss further changes in any direction involving constitutional matters the Government will be ready to discuss them. I think that that is a perfectly clear assurance.
As the hon. Member for Dorking (Sir G. Sinclair) said, I think that we can reject the Amendment and regard the Bill as representing a very big step forward. We can see how the 1968 election


works out and what the feeling of the parties is after that, and it will then be for consideration if they choose to bring points to us as to whether the stage has been reached for further evolution and advance. I hope that on the basis of that assurance my hon. Friends will feel more content.

Amendment negatived.

The Chairman: I think that the substance of Amendment No. 4 has been fully discussed.

Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Chairman: I think that the substance of new Clause No. 1 has been fully discussed, but I invite the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) to move new Clause No. 3 if he so desires.

New Clause 3.—(POWERS OF LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL IN RELATION TO TAXATION.)

Any Order in Council made under this Act shall not provide for the granting of the Legislative Council of Bermuda any powers in relation to taxation more extensive than those of the Lords House of Parliament.—[Mr. Michael Foot.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Michael Foot: I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
I would just say a word on the Clause. I do not wish unduly to delay the Committee. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the clarification of her undertaking that she gave just now. Many of us are still dissatisfied—not with her undertaking—about the general situation, but I believe that in these discussions we have made our general view of the matter plain.
The new Clause seems to illustrate the peculiar position that we are in. I cannot see why we should have such an elaborate procedure for setting up a second Chamber in Bermuda, one with such powers of interference in taxation matters, much greater powers than are given to our second Chamber for interfering with taxation. This is a very sore matter. The whole question whether Bermuda is to have income tax and a

proper system of charging the well-off members of the community their proper contributions to the community is a matter of great importance.
I should have thought that it would have been a very proper arrangement to have adopted the new Clause, which would at any rate limit considerably the powers of the second Chamber to interfere in taxation matters. There is also the fact that under the arrangements that are to be made the second Chamber will have powers of delay. My hon. Friend referred to that on Second Reading. But these powers are very important because they would be such that they would enable people in Bermuda to see what a new proposal in taxation was and whether they could find some way of getting round it in between the period the matter was first rejected by the Upper House and when it was brought forward again.
I hope that the new Clause commends itself to all those who wish to see that, at any rate, we make some small limitation in the archaic form of constitution which is still to survive in Bermuda.

Mr. James Johnson: Without seeking too much unpopularity at this late hour, I support this new Clause. On the other hand, when I look at the text of paragraph 9 on page 5 of the Report of the Constitutional Conference and recall what my hon. Friend the Minister of State has said, I feel much better about the whole future in the context of the constitutional changes envisaged.
We have a definite commitment—indeed, almost a cast iron, copper-bottomed guarantee—that, after the election, we shall have another conference and look at the points mentioned tonight. I thank my hon. Friend for the open, forthright way she has approached this whole matter. We are in her debt tonight because the message she has given us will go over the Atlantic and be studied with care and diligence by the voters and politicians in Bermuda itself.

Mrs. Hart: I regret that I cannot accept the new Clause because this proposal would conflict with the decision of the conference. But my hon. Friends should note that again there is to be a very considerable improvement on the previous position. Up to now, the Upper House has had a complete veto on any


taxation Bills coming up from the Lower House. It will no longer have a complete veto. It will be possible to present taxation Bills for assent whether or not the Upper House objects if they are passed in two successive sessions of the Lower House, with an intervening period of not less than one year.
There has always been a good deal of discussion in this country about precisely what powers either House of Parliament should have in these matters and such a debate is clearly now going on in Bermuda. This represents a considerable advance. I hope that no one in Bermuda or in the House of Commons here minds the House sitting late to discuss these matters, which are of such tremendous importance to the people of Bermuda. I have no regrets at all that my hon. Friends have put down Amendments to the Bill. I welcome the fact that they have given us an opportunity to discuss these matters in such depth.
I know that my hon. Friends will agree with what we are all anxious to achieve here. I think that all parties in Bermuda —and I trust this will continue to be the case—agree that what we are trying to achieve is the peaceful development of the rights of all peoples in Bermuda. I very much hope that we shall be able, in Bermuda, to avoid the sharp clash of interests between peoples of different creeds and colours that we see in so many parts of the world. I believe that Bermuda is very likely to be able to avoid such a clash. We all hope that such will be the case.

Question put and negatived.

Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time and passed.

ADJOURNMENT

Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. McBride.]

Adjourned accordingly at ten minutes past Twelve o'clock.